Classical Music newbie looking for some help

[Molman]

It speaks volumes about you. You are willing to accept COMPLETELY unsubstantially gossip just because it tantalizes you. Perhaps your life is this shallow, but I prefer to not accept this kind of nonsense without some real proof.

[Nicole Marie]

You don't get out much do you? Continue to talk to yourself, I'm out of this conversation.<p>[ 04-21-2003: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]

[Molman]

That's probably best as your position is so utterly indefensible. And I believe you are late for the Jerry Springer show!

[Nicole Marie]

If you would take a moment to have an adult conversation with me you may find that we could agree on several levels. I invite you to do that, let's discuss something interesting. Can you agree to stop with the rude remarks? Let's actual have an interesting conversation. Oh and by the way... don't watch Jerry Springer, completely beneath me.

[Molman]

I don't engage in gossip about people for whom I admire greatly. It is beneath me.<P>And I would submit that an "adult" conversation is exactly what I am insisting on. Accepting gossip just because it suits one's fancy is a sure sign of immaturity, irrespective of one's chronological age...<p>[ 04-21-2003: Message edited by: Molman ]

[Nicole Marie]

Listen you are trying to pull me into another fight. I agree with one point of view and you another on the Schumann/Brahms debate. No one will every know the truth. <P>I'm asking you to pick a different topic that is not rude and interesting. We've cut off the rest of the visitors to my board. I am asking to bring them back with something of interest for everyone.<p>[ 04-21-2003: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]

[Molman]

Hey, you or anyone else can discuss anything you like. But it is not a question of believing "a point of view". There is no extant evidence for propogating this sleezy gossip, however much it titillates your sensibilities.

[simsarge]

Man, Molman you need to take a chill pill dude. Obviously, there's enough evidence, circumstancial or not, to lead more than one person (I doubt N.M. is the 1st person ever to have reason to buy into this story)to believe it. Some more than others, I'm sure. She has a right to voice her opinion (same as you do yours). She wasn't "besmirching" their reputations, merely stating her opinion on a subject. Since you weren't there to observe said relationship, and anybody who was apparently hasn't said enough one way or the other to make a devinitive historical statement, then I guess the matter is up for interpretation. If I made a statement saying John Lennon was a better musician than Beethoven, that's my opinion...right, wrong or otherwise. <BR>It's the stuff message boards are made for.<BR>Get a grip, agree to disagree and quit trying to demean someone who happens to not agree with you...it's very unbecoming (nless you're French)<BR>And by the way.... I thought name calling ("silly twit", "Jerry Springer" ect)a sure sign of immaturity, irrespective of one's chronological age...(OOPS ! was that a quote ?)<BR>And since I'm on a rant here, if you don't watch Jerry Springer because it's beneath you, how do you know what time it comes on ?<P>That's all I have to say about it.

[shostakovich]

PUH-LEEZE!!! The issue of Brahms and Clara can be settled by an old movie. I think the title is Love Story (no relation to the later movie of the same name). It starred Paul Henreid as Robert, Kathryn Hepburn as Clara, and Robert Walker as Brahms. There is affection, but clearly no fooling around by Brahms and Clara. Case closed!<BR>Shos <p>[ 04-22-2003: Message edited by: shostakovich ]

[owlice]

It appears to me that Nicole fired the first salvo with her "Take a quaalude." comment. Being asked to provide sources should hardly provoke such a comment. I'd have thought that a host here would be a bit more measured in response, but I guess not!<P>I, too, have read that the relationship was platonic. I did a Google search tonight, and though this hardly supplants scholarship, I didn't find anything that shakes me of the opinion that the relationship was platonic.<P>If Nicole has substantial sources to share, I hope she will share them. Who knew <B>Brahms</B>, a composer whose works I find merely okay, could be so interesting?!

[Molman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SimSarge:<BR><STRONG>She has a right to voice her opinion (same as you do yours)....If I made a statement saying John Lennon was a better musician than Beethoven, that's my opinion...right, wrong or otherwise.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Opinions are one thing. And your example is an expression of an opinion and you're correct, there is no "right" or "wrong" if we are speaking of preferences. But if you stated that you believe John Lennon was a pedophile, and offered nothing to substantiate it, that does not quality as opinion, but just spreading baseless gossip.<P>And as someone who would think very poorly of someone who would sneak around with the wife of his mentor, the man who did so much for him, I DO think it is besmirching Brahms' character (not to even mention poor Clara) to spread baseless gossip of this sort. Perhaps you don't consider it a big deal since we live in an age when cheating on one's spouse is de rigeur and almost considered glamorous, but I find it offensive.

[barfle]

I hope tempers have settled down by this afternooon. Some of this name calling is more suited to yahoo message boards than to beethoven.com. Yes, I've been there, too, but I've never knowingly tuned in to Jerry Springer.<BR> <P>Whether Johannes was or was not dipping in Clara's well, we'll probably never know for sure. Most of us know that our heroes and heroines were human beings, and that, like all of us, they undoubtedly did things they would prefer stayed secret. We don't have enough knowledge to come up with a reasonable conclusion, so all we have is speculation. <P>Personally, I'd rather know about JFK and Marilyn Monroe.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Egad, an actual flame war! WooHoo!<P>Re the Schumann/Brahms relationship; since the Clara remained Frau Schumann, and since Brahms seems to have denied any physical intimacy with Frau Schumann, and since Herr Schumann remained with Frau Schumann, any speculation concerning scandalous private behavior remains speculation. Circumstantial evidence is tricky to evaluate without some sort of a forensic check. Have we good portraits of the three folks and of the eight children? Do any of the children NOT resemble Schumann? Is there any sort of actual evidence beyond the "everybody knows that..." grade of rumor?<P>On the subject of the children, I'd like to point out that any woman possessed of eight of them is not likely to have a lot of time available for unauthorized fooling around. Or even authorized marital whoop-de-doo. I know my more modest brood ran ME ragged for a number of years! And I notice that all my friends are mostly similarly ragged. Clara probably didn't do soccer-mom duty, but she also had no washing machine or microwave. Even with household help, domestic trivia eat up a massive amount of time and energy.<P>I shall watch for another brisk exchange of personalities. Quite entertaining, much more so than ancient alleged scandal.

[simsarge]

Mr Mo<BR>1) It ain't "basless gossip" it's been widley speculated for quite some time. Gossip...maybe, baseless...maybe also. I guess it's open for interpretation based on what little is known. Only a select few know the real truth, and they ain't talking. So it's open for the rest of us to make of it what we will. <BR>2)Actually I DO "consider (infidelity) it a big deal" I surely hope you aren't insinuating something with that little remark. <BR>3)de rigeur ? What are you in the word of the day club or something ? <BR>Good Lord man, get down off your high horse, get your snooty nose out of the air, quit it with the hoity toity attitude and accept it for what it's worth. There's a POSSIBILITY that the two had a thing. <BR>SHEEZE

[simsarge]

John Lennon was a pedophile ??<BR>Wait until I tell everyone on the John Lennon.com site !!

[Kyle]

I think Mussorgsky spent some time in the military. Not sure though...

[shostakovich]

Yup. According to Stokowski, he was standing guard at the hospital where Borodin was a surgeon. They first met in the washroom where M was taking a smoke break and warming up, and B came in to wash his hands.
Shos

[MisterA]

Originally posted by Elgar Fan:
I think Mussorgsky spent some time in the military. Not sure though...

You're right. So did Cui and Rimsky-Korsakov, two other members of the Five. Seems to be a strong combination, army and music

[bignaf]

that's where he picked up his unfortunate drinking habit. though Russians... (don't have to be in the army to drink a lot).

[Gaby]

It appears that Mr. Molman is more than a little opinionated. Actually, he seems discombobulated when it comes to tact and etiquette. Therefore, Mr. Molman, if you want to be taken seriously, please refrain from calling people twits or begrudge their right to an opinion. Always remember, opinions are like %$@$#%, everybody has one!