Bartoli

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Bartoli

Postby Marye » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:15 pm

I must say, Nicole, that I purchased Bartoli's The Salieri Album and a Lang Lang's Tschaikovsky Mendelssohn Piano First Concertos. Recommendations from you and b.com. Both are wonderful recordings. You know a thing or two there missy! :D
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Oct 20, 2003 12:14 pm

Hi Marye-

Glad you enjoyed the recordings. I only suggest what I enjoy and listen to at home. I've driven my dogs nuts with Bartoli this weekend, I'll have to find something else to torture them with. I'll let you know what I find.

As for books (another fav subject), I just finished "Lucky" by Alice Sebold. I read it last night; I could not put it down! It is her true story about her rape during her first year in college. She is an amazing woman. She also wrote "Lovely Bones" which was on the New York Times best seller list.

I'm also reading "Dude, Where's My Country?" by Moore. I love Moore's insight into the tragic ironies in this country. (I also suggest watching "Bowling for Columbine". He makes great points on why this country is so quick to pull a gun.) Back to books...

"Tuesday's with Morrie" is a great quick read. It's a true story about the author’s college professor who is dyeing. They would meet every Tuesday before he died and the author left those meetings with wonderful new insights into life. The book was a bit frustrating. Morrie would make basic points on life and the author then goes into about how much these points changed his life. To me Morrie's points are obvious; live life like it’s your last. I found myself calling the author a dumb ass from time to time. But Morrie is what you care about when you read it, not the dim witted author.

Another good read is "The Red Tent". It's the story of Dinah from the Bible. It's written from her side, since the entire Bible is written from the view of men.

Also check out "A Round Heeled Woman" by Jane Jusko. She had a goal to establish a relationship with a man she liked before she turned 67. It's a funny, alive and powerful look about a woman who wanted to explore dating at an age when most people think grandmas should be home knitting.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby EJA » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:28 pm

Say, could you expand on "The Red Tent" a little, please? I happened to read the story of Dinah last night in my Bible, and I was thinking what an awful thing it must have been for her. First she gets commandeered by this guy, and then when it appears they are going to live happily ever after (or at least she will live pretty comfortably in his harem), her brothers come and hose the guy and everybody in town and she's back to being a Bedouin again with little hope of ever being married seeing that she is no longer a virgin. Of course, Canaanites generally deserved such treatment as Shechem received, but poor Dinah!
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:11 pm

The story explains that she and the prince? Was he a prince I don't know but she and he were in love. The Bible states that she went out alone to visit the women of the area and was taken and raped. But the story has a different angle. She was in love with this guy. She went out to meet the woman of the area, they ran into each other and they established a relationship. They saw each other on the sly and eventually the sex was consensual and they married in secret. He did not have a harem, he was a young prince and Dinah was it for him.

The story then follows the Bible. The family bartered for her etc. the bros got ticked and killed the entire family. The Red Tent does an amazing job of telling the killing of the prince. It happpend in their bed at night and Dinah wakes up in her husbands blood holding him as he dies and her brothers are running through his home killing all the men. Brought me to tears.

Dinah is then cast out of the area. Her husband’s mother helps Dinah escape and start a new life. She eventually finds happiness but not until much later in life.

The author makes the point that no one ever asked Dinah what she wanted. No one ever asked if she loved this guy. He obviously loved her... why would his family shell out such a high price for her if she was just a rape victim? Most people see the story as that of a rape but if you really look into it, it's not that. The author felt Dinah should have a voice and gave her one in this story.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby EJA » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:17 pm

As I read the passage, it looked quite consentual to me, but a man, particularly a powerful prince, has a great deal of persuasive power over a young woman, too (vice versa is also true), and I suppose the brothers considered her to have been seduced. But the Bible makes it pretty clear that he had a great deal of affection for her and his intentions were apparently more or less noble, although he, shall we say, jumped the gun. It doesn't say that he had a harem, but Dinah's father had a harem, and most powerful men of that time did, so it seems logical that if he didn't have a harem, he would, eventually. In any case, her brothers hauled off and killed him and Dinah was left awfully high and dry. The biblical account doesn't give details on Dinah's future, but I'm afraid to say I suspect it wasn't as rosy as this book portrayed. In those times, women who weren't virgins had a very hard time getting married. Still, if I had a sister — I have several female cousins, so I am basing this on that — I think my viceral reaction would be to kill some SOB who seduced her, especially if he was of a society and culture that I consider to be heathen. Of course, being a civilized human in a (formerly) Christian society, I would restrain this viceral reaction, but I do understand the sentiment. The Bible by no means sanctions the behavior of her brothers, and in fact it becomes evident as one reads further that many of them were rather unruly and probably not morally superior to Shechem (Judah in particular). Jacob, their father, chewed them out for what they had done, mostly because it endangered their lives and future livelihood.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Nicole Marie » Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:09 pm

Good points Ethan. I suggest you pick up the book it's a good read. Most people I've talked to do not buy the rape of Dinah. That's why the author wrote the book. Women can not be seduced, we allow it to happen. Seduction is something that is not about a man taking control it's about passion and both parties wanting to be involved together. When it's not seduction, well that's when rape happens.

I never bought the story when I first read it (in Catholic High School - there's a shocker for ya' Ethan), the author didn't buy it either and wanted to give Dinah a voice in this story. The seduction was on both parts, she wanted him, he wanted her but of course family gets in the way. If you read it, let me know what you think.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Marye » Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:57 am

Thank you Nicole for the list. I have been away for days, unbearably unwell with viral infections, I think so I have not responded earlier.

I have read "The Lovely Bones" and to be honest it was not my favourite story, though I would read another of Sebold's books as I enjoyed her writing. I have the Red Tent waiting for me to read and now, after reading this thread, I must start reading it. I have seen all of Michael Moore's movies including Bowling for Columbine and howled (Michael MOore's loved in Canada). I have read Stupid White Men, twice.... and I just haven't gone to get Dude, Where's my Country... yet but I will.

I read many Canadian novels since I support the International Festival of Authors and Canadian authors in particular. Mary Lawson's Crow Lake was a wonderful read (Canadian), The Last Crossing, Guy Vanderhaeghe (Canadian) and a great adventure. If you want strange but enjoyable, Edward Carey's Observatory Mansions. English author, very very odd but very funny - so English is that :D
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Re: Bartoli

Postby EJA » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:24 pm

Nicole, that doesn't shock me at all. In fact, it makes perfect sense. You are very ex-Catholic.

Another thing, if Catholic catechism teaches that Dinah was raped, which you seem to indicate, the Bible doesn't say that. It says that Shechem's heart was knit with her, and that he took her home and lay with her, violating her chastity (duh), and then went to her father and asked for her. Here is the text. I wouldn't classify that as rape unless she was under age, which is possible. He did get it out of order, though. Had he asked for her first, he might have at least lived to tell about it. I don't know if he would have been permitted to marry her, though. You have to remember that the Canaanites were exceedingly debauched, practicing infant sacrifice, bestiality, and other stomach-turning things. It may very well be that Jacob wouldn't allow his daughter to marry into such a culture. That's just speculation, though, and I'm still not condoning what her brothers did. Jacob didn't either. He was pissed.

I beg to differ with your statement that women can't be seduced. It is my observation, and I believe a generally accepted principle, that both men and women can be seduced. Perhaps "seduction" needs definition. Seduction is inducing someone to consent and cooperate in immoral (outside of marriage) sexual intercourse by enticements that overcome their scruples. The victim willingly participates, but later regrets having done so. "Allowing it to happen" is being seduced.

I may have to check out this book. What is the author's name?
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Nicole Marie » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:49 pm

You're to much of a Christian for me. Sigh.

The authors name is Anita Diamant.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby HERNAN » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:25 pm

The Story of Dinah is in the new testament ?
bye bye
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Re: Bartoli

Postby piqaboo » Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:10 pm

appears to be Genesis 34:1 - ...
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby EJA » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:48 pm

Well, thank you, Nicole, for recognizing me as a Christian (I don't know how you could tell!). I'm sorry we don't see things the same way, but I'm glad that we have been able to discuss this civily. I think this is about the most civil conversation on any fairly weighty subject that we've maybe ever had, and thanks for that, too. (Wait until you see the unions thread. :roll: That will test our mettle.)

Oh "to" is a preposition and "too" is the adjective you were looking for, I believe. (Sorry — that's just one of those things that just drives me crazy.)

Genesis 34 is in the Old Testament . . .
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Re: Bartoli

Postby HERNAN » Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:19 am

Thank You
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Marye » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:43 pm

Nicole,

Have you listened to the Marilyn Horne CD that is featured on the Beethoven homepage per chance?
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Nicole Marie » Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:04 pm

Hi Marye-

We don't have it at the station. I've asked Eric (our Music Director) if we will get the CD and he has not heard from the label. If we get it I'll give it a listen for you and let you know. I dig Horne anyway. She has a mature voice that I find so intricate to listen to. I love her interpretations.
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Re: Bartoli

Postby Marye » Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:14 pm

Wonderful then... and I thank you. :D
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