World War Two.

[Marye]

I'd read that the Labour party would drop him in the Thames but for the laws against dumping


Angie... I howled when I read this.. Thanks for the laugh....

[Angie Parkes]

Britain would only be the most recent case of a national politics taking a hard right turn....

[analog]

Originally posted by FlyingSorcery:
I think Americans see immigration differently. We can get caught up in the "Us versus Them".

Steinbeck captured the meanness of that us-versus-them mindset in "the grapes of wrath", which i read as a youth not long after my hometown(Miami) got its first million Cuban immigrants. The book awakened me to my own pejudice. I hope it is still on high school reading lists.

<small>[ 05-14-2005, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[Haggis@wk]

Angie,

” I doubt if our American friends know, and perhaps it's not widely known in England, that Canada has a special relationship with Holland as a result of WWII”

I didn’t learn of the relationship between Canada and Holland until early November 2001. 1-3 Nov as I recall. I was checking into a small hotel in Bergen op Zoom when someone grabbed me from behind in a bear hug and started bouncing me up and down and starting cursing in my ear!!

It was a Canadian senior NCO I had served with in Somalia! In full dress uniform! I hadn't seen him since April 1993 in Mogadishu.

After I got my heart started again we sat down for a beer or 40 and he told me essentially the same story you related.

Every year members from his unit go to Holland for “Remembrance Day” ceremonies. He was actually escorting a few Canadian veterans who had fought in Holland (they were in their late 70’s and early 80’s) and so he and I sat there and listen to their stories.

It made me slightly ashamed that I used to complain that I had to spend four months in Somalia under field conditions when those guys did it for more than a year, while walking across most of Europe!!

I was just sorry I had to leave Holland before the ceremonies.

[DavidS]

Originally posted by dai bread:
I am doubtful of the wisdom of celebrating victory over people who are now our friends. It seems like crowing, and rubbing salt in wounds that are best left to heal.

In the case of WW2, most Germans I have met agree that the victory was not over people so much as over Nazism. And this they heartily celebrate with us all...

[Angie Parkes]

Haggis, what a treat that must have been for you!

Our troops completed their mission in Somalia, but not without the "Somalia Affair", which I'm sure you know all about since you were there. Not Canada's finest hour, I'm afraid. I'm hoping that you found your Canadian comrades-in-arms vastly different from the handful responsible for the atrocities. Did you serve with/alongside the Van Doos or some other regiment?

<small>[ 05-19-2005, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Angie ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

"Canadian military history"

Haggis, I'm gobsmacked you didn't pounce on that one in the name of humor, given previous comments.

[Haggis@wk]

Yes, but I don’t remember the unit. I worked with the Canadians assigned to the U.N. headquarters. My friend was a supply NCO on “Operation Deliverance” (We called it “Restore Hope”) I’ll have to dig to find out what unit he was with since at the time he was seconded to the U.N. staff. He had to wear that silly blue beret.

The "affair" as you call it was an aberration. It happened in the central part of Somalia (Baidoa? or Beledweyne?) So I was only aware of the incident peripherally..

Didn’t one of the suspects kill himself? I heard another one got some jail time.

Bad eggs are, unfortunately, drawn to the combat units every now and then, but I recall the real breakdown was the NCOs and Officers not doing their jobs. Even a “screw up,” properly supervised, can be a productive member or at the worst, can be recognized and gotten rid of.

I got an email from a friend in Afghanistan who worked with the Canadian snipers; he referred to the Canadians as “Canuckistanis.”

I thought that was a hoot.

[Haggis@wk]

I missed that one OT!!!! darn!

[Angie Parkes]

OT, that's not fair! Just because we bought our subs on eBay from the Brits.

I'm assuming that once a submariner, always a submariner. At least, that's the way it is with my dad. Actually, one of the four boats bought from the RN had an accident with a fatality last year. I doubt it made US news services.

Haggis, it took place in Belet Huen, which might be another way of spelling Beledweyne. The public inquiry suggested it wasn't an abberation but business as usual on that mission. Sixteen people, including senior officers, watched a boy being murdered; the entire camp heard him screaming; no one did anything to stop it.

One of the two men accused tried to commit suicide, failed, and suffers from severe brain damage as a result. He is no longer fit to stand trial or for much else. He will never leave hosital. The other was sentenced to five years.

The chief of defense staff resigned. His successor was forced to resign when pertinent documents to the affair were found to have been destoyed. The minister of national defense was also forced to resign. His successor was defeated at the next election because voters were disgusted he had cut short the inquiry. The regiment was disbanded.

This sounds like systemic rot to me, not a few bad apples. It's a terrible shame that Canadian peacekeeping operations, which I believe at one time were quite well respected, are now suspect.

I'm afraid that I'm not clear if "Canuckistani" is meant to tease or to mock. Are Canadian snipers generally thought to be inept?

[piqaboo]

Afghani's live with rifles. I suspect being compared to an Afghani sniper is a very high compliment indeed.

[Angie Parkes]

Or could it mean that the Canadian soldiers are trigger-happy? I don't want to think the worst of our troops; I just don't know.

[haggis]

"I'm afraid that I'm not clear if "Canuckistani" is meant to tease or to mock. Are Canadian snipers generally thought to be inept?"

Good lord no! Nothing could be farther from the truth I still think a Canadian Sniper still hold the record for the longest shot in Afghanistan in 2002. Prior to that a U.S. Marine held the record from the Vietnam era.

While some might be offended that there is a “record” for the longest kill shot, I think it’s pretty damn cool. But then I’ve been known to hold un-PC thoughts!

To the best of my knowledge several Canadian snipers in Afghanistan were put in for American combat awards (Bronze Stars, I think) by the Marines, very, VERY rare event.

Trust me, I have nothing but the highest regards for any of the Canadian military folks.
The “Canuckistani" was just teasing, most G.I.s refer to the Canadians as “Canucks” which is also probably un-PC, but if they don’t like it ,scro’om!

I'm just sorry they are not held in the same esteem by most of their fellow citizens.

Angie, I try to never write hateful things about anyone (OT, of course, it the prime exception that proves that rule )

[OperaTenor]

Hi Angie, I seem to recall hearing something. Wasn't it a fire? Fire and flooding(nope, not a nuclear accident) are considered the two most dangerous casualties that can occur on a sub. Our local gallows humor was, "Don't worry, the flooding'll put the fire out.

Hi Haggis, of course you don't have to try. Doesn't it just come naturally for you?

[Angie Parkes]

Thanks, Haggis, for the explanation. I don't think any Canadian would take offense at "Canuck". We think enough of the term to have named an NHL team Canucks, and of course, there's no higher civilian honour here.

As for kill records etc., as much as I'm a pacifist, left-wing, bleeding-heart liberal type, I'm not about to judge what the benchmarks are in a combat zone. My guess is that if I were putting my life on the line pretty much 24/7, I think I'd feel a whole lot better knowing my team was keeping their team as far away as possible.

I don't much hold with PC-talk, actually. I think that by the time we have to call a spade a gardening implement, we're not that far off from banning spades. There's usually no need to call a spade a f***ing shovel, either, but we don't have to get mealy-mouthed.

OT, the HMCS Chicoutimi ran afoul of both flood and fire. I'm not clear on a lot, and I bet you can piece together what happened better than I, but when the RN unloaded 4 Upholder-class boats to the RCN (all 4 cost $750 million in total, so it really was almost like getting them off eBay), not everything was up to code. Specifically, in at least Chicoutimi, electrical insulation was "water-resistant" not "water-proof", a fact unknown until the board of inquiry.

On her maiden trip under a Canadian flag, Chicoutimi's air vent malfunctioned, and she was running with her hatches open so crew could repair it. A rogue wave washed over and flooded the compartments below with 2,000 litres of water. The water shorted out the electrical system under the captain's cabin because of inadequate insulation and there was a flash fire in an electrical panel.

Chicoutimi lost power and radios in a couple of seconds, so the boat went black. Lieutenant Chris Saunders was by the panel when it blew and was overcome by smoke inhalation. He died a few days later. The crew fought the fire for a couple of hours before it was put out. Contact was made with RCN and the RN by satellite phone powered by batteries.

In my opinion, it's a wonder that only Lieut. Saunders died.

My dad chased Soviets, too, in the early 1960s, under the Soviet ice cap. He'd come home from 3-6 months at sea (of course, none of us knew where he was or what he was doing), and naturally the first thing he'd want was a long, hot bath. He'd be in there for ages, and my mother would hammer on the door, asking "Vic? Are you all right?" when he was sitting in 8 inches of hot water. He was always struck by the irony, but couldn't tell us about it at the time.

[Haggis@wk]

Answer.com

"The current record for longest range sniper kill is 2,430 metres (7,972 ft), reportedly accomplished by a Canadian sniper (Master Cpl. Arron Perry) in 2002, during the invasion of Afghanistan, using a .50 BMG McMillan bolt-action rifle. This meant that the round had a flight time of four seconds, and a drop of 44.5 m (146 ft). The previous record was held by Carlos Hathcock, achieved during the Vietnam War, at a distance of 2,250 m.

Such a shot cannot be taken in haste. By contrast, much of the U.S./Coalition urban sniping in support of operations in Iraq is at much shorter ranges, although, in one notable incident on April 3 2003, a two man team of Royal Marines armed with L96 sniper rifles each killed targets at a range of about 860 m with shots which dropped 17 m (56 ft) in the air.

We had snipers in Somalia who were working at much closer ranges, but still impressive.

In the closing weeks of our mission Somali "snipers" (and I use the word advisedly, there were really thugs with rifles) began shooting into the airfield from nearby houses.

We put out flyers to all those houses and told the occupants that if they stay in the houses they couldn't carry any long weapons (read rifles). We also told them that we could look through wall and if we saw anyone with a long weapon we would kill them.

On the perimeter of the airfield we turned a 40 ft. container on end and put in some “new” (in 1994) thermal imagining equipment. It was first generation and needed liquid nitrogen or hydrogen to operate. The operators would scan the row of house and could, literally see through the wall and see the occupant. Weapons stood out very clearly and when the observers saw someone with a long weapon they would lase the point and snipers at either end of the airfield would fire at the lased point, usually going through the wall and killing or injuring the gunmen with the first round or two.

After a few days they got the message and stopped.

[piqaboo]

I bet they stopped taking granddad's sword down to polish too!

Thats pretty cool technology, when its on your side. It sucks when its on their side!

An accurage shot of over a mile! Wow!

[BigJon@Work]

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
[i]"The current record for longest range sniper kill is 2,430 metres (7,972 ft), reportedly accomplished by a Canadian sniper (Master Cpl. Arron Perry) in 2002, during the invasion of Afghanistan, using a .50 BMG McMillan bolt-action rifle. This meant that the round had a flight time of four seconds, and a drop of 44.5 m (146 ft). The previous record was held by Carlos Hathcock, achieved during the Vietnam War, at a distance of 2,250 m.

Such a shot cannot be taken in haste.

No duh! But can someone please explain how the shot can be taken at all? I'm not into shooting sports (as it appears this record is a military sport) but I understand physics and gravity. A 146 foot drop would require the scope and barrel to be pointed in radically different directions. This would be more like calculating artillery ranges. Also the bullet would need to have some sort of hyper velocity and incredible axial stability when it leaves the barrel, to do lethal damage at that distance. An ordinary hunting bullet would slowed so much at that distance that the intended vicitm could catch it in his teeth without damage. Also a hunting bullet would have started to wobble and lost all areo efficiency and directional stabilty.

BigJon

[Haggis@wk]

The rounds are .50 cal, based on the Browning design. Developed at the very end of World War I. Even then the round was effective out to ranges of 2,200 meters. The BMG stands for Browning Machine Gun, meaning the round that is chambered for today’s .50 cal (M-2, etc)

The modern .50 BMG sniper rifles barrels are made with 1 – 12 turns meaning the round is fairly stable, turning once every 10 – 12 inches.

As for the rest of the physics, it’ll take someone a lot smarter than me.

I’ve seen what a “ma duce” round can do to a truck engine; the mind boggles when you consider flesh.

[barfle]

I've fired a fifty caliber machine gun (training only) and they throw out some pretty good sized rocks.

We were firing at targets (old trucks and/or tanks) about half a mile away, and after firing a three or four round burst, the echoes died out, then you could hear the slugs hit the target. It's the only time I've ever actually heard that from behind the weapon.