Veterans Day, 11 Nov 2003

[Shapley]

I agree.

I said long ago that I'm still waiting for any government agency that was created to deal with a problem to say "We've solved the problem, and now we're shutting our doors and going back home."

The closest we've come to that is the old War Department, at the close of wars prior to WWII, when they followed the Constitutional mandate that armies be raised only in time of war, and only for a period of two years. Then we replaced them with the Department of Defense, and we have had a standing army in place ever sense, and the people have lost all concept of what a militia really is.

At least, on some issues, George W. Bush still talks, and in some instances acts, like he understands the concept of "States Rights". That comes, I suppose, from being Governor of a State as independent as Texas. Unfortunately, when we took the selection of the Senate from the States and gave it to the people at large, we took from the States the only protection we had of the concept of "States rights". Now every Senator and every congressman with an eye for preserving his power (which is 99 44/100 percent of them) finds that power in Federal rather than State government.

V/R
Shapley

[Valerie]

the posts have been very interesting - some i agree with, others make me sick and scare me

there is one thing that i would encourage people to do if they are so disgusted with politics and politicians - VOTE AND GET INVOLVED

to be frank, i have NO RESPECT for anyone who does not vote - not only is it a privilege as a citizen it is your responsibility - what a wonderful word "responsibility" i wish there were more responsible people in the united states - that way my tax dollars wouldn't be tossed away by the children in the play pen at programs that have been failing or have failed for generations (you can pick a program...)

as for our president - i know him, and he does know how to spell nuclear...and knows what it means

thank god we are in the united states of america, and other freedom loving countries, because if we weren't, after reading all of these posts - warrants would be issued for our arrests and we would be rounded up and tortured or slaughtered

enuf

[Nicole Marie]

Uh Stravinsky... chill girl. People are just posting opinions. No need to be sick over a post.

I think the state of the country currently has some people concerned. I know I am. We have laws on the books like the Patriot act that allows the government to tap your phone with no probable cause, police can enter your home with no warrant and you do not have to be present during the search. Officials can hold you for an indefinite period of time and the police do not have to notify your loved ones. If you are held you can be denied access to a lawyer. The Act has a clause that says they must clear your lawyer first before you can see them and that can take up to 3 months.

This is one example on how this country is becoming an extremely nervous place to live in. I don't think the taking away of this many of our civil liberties is what this country is based on. Sounds a bit like the Gestapo to me. Sure we need some form of a Patriot Act after Sept 11th but not the degree we have now. This is my opinion and many people on this board are voicing their concerns.

You know the Pres. that's nice, tell him I'd him to take a look at the way he is taking away our civil rights. Oh and ask him to put the laws for a clean environment back on the books. He's set us back 30 years. This planet does not belong just to the US, when you mess up clear air you do it for the entire world too. I'd like to know the legal grounds for a country to sue the US for poor environmental standards.

<small>[ 11-13-2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]</small>

[piqaboo]

Originally posted by Stravinsky: to be frank, i have NO RESPECT for anyone who does not vote - not only is it a privilege as a citizen it is your responsibility

Aint that so. No vote = no power. Voting is a right, a duty and a responsibility. Well put, Strav.


It would be nice if we had to take a short test (2 multiple choice questions) in order to vote on a particular measure, just to show we know what measure it is we are voting on!

Ex:
Q1: Measure 29888 is about a)devil worship in schools, b) use of marijuana to reduce pain in cancer patients c) traffic laws d) sheepherding land use rights in Montana e) deafness in whales
Q2: Measure 29888 proposes:
a) to make it illegal to skin cats in school b) to allow doctors to prescribe marijuana to patients with certain diseases c) to allow certain people to own marijuana because they have certain diseases d) to allow people to grow marijuana to sale to people with certain diseases e) b,c and d f)to ban speedbumps g)to allow alpaca farmers to use BLM land and to ban sheep from it h)to force the navy to make more underwater noise to make sure the whales all go deaf, because deaf whales beach themselves and whales are a good source of fuel oil and protein.

Result: 2/2 correct, you may vote on this issue.
1/2 correct, you may not vote on this issue. Please continue to the next measure on your ballot.....


Unfortunately, that would really clobber our already poor voter turnout!

[Shapley]

I know it is popular to blame the Patriot act on Pres. Bush, but I should point out that it is law because it was submitted to, debated by, and voted into law by, the Senators and Congressmen who make up our legislature. It was not passed by Executive order (although a recent President did have a penchant for doing things that way).

This is, of course, the way things are done (properly) in this nation.

If our civil liberties are being murdered by this law, there are plenty of bloody hands in Washington D.C.

V/R
Shapley

[Nicole Marie]

Shapely, I didn't say that it's his fault. I find that the way his administration is using it disturbing.

[Shapley]

Nicole,

Which was exactly my point earlier about world government.

Lyndon Johnson, (with whom I disagree considerably) once said "Legislation must not be voted on with an eye to the good it can do if properly applied, but rather with and eye to the evil it can do if improperly applied", although I may have paraphrased that a bit, my memory being as poor as it is.

The pity, of course, is that Johnson didn't follow his own advice.

V/R
Shapley

[Marye]

...freedom-loving peoples.......Under the Bush administration in particular, use of that expression has come to mean "do it my way or else".

... exactly right. It is how I interpret a number of "Americanisms".

[barfle]

Marye, although I've lamented the constantly increasing attitude in the U.S. of "there oughta be a law," we don't all feel that legislation and its inherent force is necessarily the best way to address societal ills.

I've made it quite clear that my attitude toward many of our adventures in the last couple of years have been short-sighted, and are bound to do more harm than good to both us and them in the long run.

Yes, we had our nose bloodied on 9/11/1, and I feel a potent response toward those responsible is justified. However, the loss of liberties that tens of thousands died protecting is a poor compensation for the loss of a few buildings and a few thousand lives.

And it still saddens me, and it angers me.

Regarding responsibility for the blasphemously named "USA patriot act," (it's actually an acronym: "UNITING AND STRENGTHENING AMERICA BY PROVIDING APPROPRIATE TOOLS REQUIRED TO INTERCEPT AND OBSTRUCT TERRORISM" They must have had some marketing people involved...) there is enough to go around. The administration has plenty of clever politicians who did an outstanding job of ramming it through congress without enough time for the members of congress to read the damned thing, much less comprehend just what kind of draconian powers it allows the government to exert over people who are not accused or even suspected of a crime. This is the kind of action that we must guard against in the heat of battle. It's one of those "are you with me or against me" situations that simply does not boil itself down to anything that simple.

I'm still a patriotic citizen of the United States, and I have no intention of changing that. However, I am often also a member of the "loyal opposition." I can still love my homeland while lamenting the paths she may be taking.

<small>[ 11-13-2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>

[Valerie]

Ok Nicole

provide examples of how the patriot act has been abused

and don't tell me to chill - i am just sick of all the nonsense, propaganda, lies and spin about what is going on - no facts - someone else's fact is another person's opinion

i am sick of the "blame the united states" - ok, blame us - then let's stop sending our tax dollars all over the world to people who hate us just because we are - this country is the most generous country on the planet - i am not an isolationist, but i would like to see my tax dollars spent on people in my own country that would appreciate it...

again - if people are scared of living in the united states - LEAVE!!!!! find another country!!! nobody is keeping you here

if you don't like what's going on - then VOTE and GET INVOLVED TO CHANGE THINGS

[Shapley]

Strav,

The problem is, we give billions to people in our own country who also don't appreciate it.

V/R
Shapley

[Nicole Marie]

Now you really need to chill. I am not attacking you. I do vote and do take part in several organizations that work for this country. I feel I am very invloved in the progress of this country. As for leaving, nope your stuck with people like me. The best patriot you can be is a vacl one, no matter what your opinion. I'm leaving you with several links I'd like you to read through and learn about what is going on in this country.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/05/18/Columns/With_Patriot_Act__com.shtml

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59863,00.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/30/attack/main565875.shtml

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15770

[piqaboo]

Most humbly, YRH,
I say that some (v. few) of the posts here also scare and make me ill with fear. I defend the rights of the posters to their opinions, and I defend my right to vote the other way.
Ashcroft and the Patriot Act give me the screaming willies.

I say also that being concerned by the opinions of others is part of the right to be free and to protest. If YRH werent to some degree scared or concerned, perhaps your royal highness wouldnt be so vehement? For example, on the subject of abortion?

yust checking.....

<small>[ 11-17-2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: piqaboo ]</small>

[Nicole Marie]

Strav can post what ever hell she wants to post but when she starts demanding people to leave the country... taking it a little to far. I'm not telling her not to post, I'm just asking her to tone it down a bit. I feel her tone is a bit more hostlie then the others. I should know, I've been guilty of it myself. I'm calling her on it because I know it when I see it. She has her opinion and I hope she reads the links I've provided and finds that the view many people share in this country is that it is becoming a dangerous place and if Newt Gingritch (sp) and I can agree on that, then there really is something wrong.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12632&c=206

[barfle]

Well, I'll certainly go along with ending the foreign aid. We've never been able to purchase genuine friendship, and I don't see it happening anytime that I'll be around for.

Again, regarding the putriot act, much like many other laws, there's no need for the more invasive provisions. If we had enforced the laws we already had on the books, Mohammed Atta and his band of thugs would have been deported in 1998 or 1999. Their student visas had expired, and the law said they were to leave at that time. If we're not going to enforce the laws we have, why do we feel the need to pass more laws? (The answer is "that's what legislatures do.")

I'm also not an isolationist, but I'm much further from being an interventionalist. I believe we should welcome those who want to live and work (note the "and work" part, please) with open arms. The only ones I would want to kick out are those who are here with antisocial agendas. And changing regimes in other countries should be left to the citizens of those countries.

[Shapley]

"Liberal believe in passing laws at the highest possible level, and enforcing the selectively.

Conservatives believe in passing laws at the lowest possible level, and enforcing them effectively."

- Shapley R. Hunter - Oct. 1996

[shostakovich]

For a week or so, some of the so-called "news" channels have been focusing on how polarized the country is getting over the war and other issues (patriot act, economy for example).

Some of that polarity is showing up in this thread. Luckily B.com has many articulate spokespeople to put forward views. Part of our good fortune comes from people living outside of the US, who can provide an additional perspective.

Personally, I like the frank and open discussion. I'm generally a laid back guy. I have never felt passion about politics before to the extent I'm riled now. Neither the Viet Nam conflict nor Watergate affected me quite so much. I was too young to fully appreciate the meaning of the Army-McCarthy hearings, although McCarthy himself was easy to despise. Only the arguments over who killed Kennedy, and why, got my dander up near where it is now.

So keep on going with views and information. We can all learn something. The issues raised in this thread are important to think about.

Of course, we could blame Haggis for starting it without an "exit strategy", but the thread sure as hell demonstrates democracy.
Shos

[Serenity]

We should reduce the power of others over our lives by taking responsibility into our own hands. Reduce the size of government. Become involved but be informed. Nothing ticks me off more than having someone else suggest what I should be doing.

[dai bread]

Sorry, Statesiders, but we who do not receive, & never have received, foreign aid are also anxious about the current direction of the U.S.

I've said in other posts that the correct response to 9/11 was not through bombs but through banks. Cut off terrorists' funding. Also, you need the sort of real intelligence which is currently telling you that the Iraqi citizenry are getting annoyed at the way the occupation is being run.

I've described the way our Govt. health system works, and as far as I'm concerned those who oppose publicly-run & funded health systems are just plain wrong. Our system isn't perfect, but neither is anybody else's.

I did like Measure 29888, Piqaboo. I might add from my own culture, Measure 29889, land rights for gay whales.

[EJA]

Originally posted by dai bread:
I did like Measure 29888, Piqaboo. I might add from my own culture, Measure 29889, land rights for gay whales.

I know better, but I'll still ask – is that a typo?