Ronald Reagan - R.I.P.

[Shapley]

Well, since no one apparently has mentioned it here: Ronald Reagan has passed away at 93 years of age.

I mourn the passing of a great man!

V/R
Shapley

[Nicole Marie]

Call me crazy...

Love how no one will talk ill of the dead. Sure Reagan did some good things but he also did some crappy things. Iran contra anyone? All the media focused on this weekend was the good stuff.

A full life is not perfect and wonderful. I'd like to see someone highlight the crap he did too.

I hope when I kick it folks will say, "Yeah she was great but she was also a pain in the ass." Let's all be honest for once about life folks, we don't all live a Wonder Bread life all the time and the glorification of Reagan makes me want to vomit.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
Call me crazy...

Mildly cracked, perhaps. Not crazy.

It's simply traditional to remember the good things about the recently deceased, and to put away the wrong that they've done. Sort of a "Death cancels all debts" deal.

Here, have a mint. It'll help with the nausea.

[Nicole Marie]

Hi Selma-

Yeah, I understand that's what we do but it's (to me) a bunch of shit. We should remember people for everything they do, not just the good. It's the mistakes in life that teach us lesson and by ingnoring them... well it's just wrong.

[barfle]

YRH, one thing about Iran/Contra is that when he realized it was really going on, he accepted the blame for it. To me, that showed a large measure of humility and honor, and was one of his finest moments. We haven't seen much of that lately, beyond the breast-beating Clinton did when we found out about the extracurricular activities in the oral office.

Not everything any President gets blame or credit for is entirely that President's doing, but he was a major participant in the fall of the Soviet Union (which I believe to be a good thing, ask any Pole or Czech), and although it took a while to overcome the economic failures of Nixon, Ford, and Carter, the Reagonomic economy was strong.

[Nicole Marie]

barfle, I'm talking about how this society loves to glorify the dead and never point all aspect of someones life. We all have dark moments and all the media can do is slut themselves in kissing ass. There are other issues going on the in the world which I'd rather hear about then his film career, his love letters to Nancy, his love for westerns, the "long goodbye", the reshowing of interviews with Nancy, the china pattern, his cowboy boots, etc. Every "good" tid bit the media can drag up is being used. I don't care. For those that do care, visit his grave. They are putting him in the ground in CA. Say your goodbyes, blow your nose and lets pay attention to something that really matters.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by barfle:
...one thing about Iran/Contra is that when he realized it was really going on, he accepted the blame for it. To me, that showed a large measure of humility and honor, and was one of his finest moments.

Really? :confused: I must have forgotten that he resigned, or at least offered his resignation to the American people, which would have been the appropriate response for a guilty commander.
I recall quite the contray, several instances of lack of memory, and even claiming to have fallen asleep in some of the meetings. Nevertheless, verbal acceptance of the blame, with no action to back it up, isn't worth the paper it's written on(even King Richard resigned when the rubber finally hit the road).

...and although it took a while to overcome the economic failures of Nixon, Ford, and Carter, the Reagonomic economy was strong.

I seem to recall a >$4,000,000,000,000 federal defecit at the end of his two-term presidency, the largest in history. Doesn't exactly ring of financial acumen to me.

Former President Reagan had a great talent for picking good speech writers, and for eloquent delivery of what they wrote for him. I'm sorry he and Nancy endured the hell of the last ten years. God rest his soul.

<small>[ 06-07-2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Shapley]

Nicole:

I believe it was Cicero who said "Speak no ill of the dead." It seems the tradition long exceeds our media.

OT: Reagan didn't feign memory losses, that was Hillary Clinton. He was accused of sleeping in meetings by the press, after he joked about it once.

We've heard enough ill about him for years. Let us honour his memory, he was truly a great man.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

OT, I certainly wasn't implying sainthood or anything similar, but I find it remarkable how few of our leaders accept one iota of responsibility for what goes on in their administrations. Bush certainly doesn't, Clinton certainly didn't. When it comes to resignations, the reason Nixon resigned was to avoid impeachment - a trial he knew he would lose.

Yes, the government was running a large deficit when he left, but mortages weren't 18% any more, either (and I had a mortgage at 18% during the Carter years, so I know it's no exaggeration).

[Nicole Marie]

He'd dead, move on. I'm not speaking ill of him, I am questioning this stupid tradition of honoring corpses. They are dead, people are fighting wars, starving, homeless etc. and we spend time looking at his cowboy boots on TV. Please...

[OperaTenor]

I don't mean to speak ill of the dead. Quite the contrary, I believe acuracy of our rememberance is the best "service" we can render the dead. What little I've heard from the media(nothing but NPR, even) in the last 24 hours, reeks of historical revisionism-painting with a rose-colored brush, and I find myself rebelling against it.

I fully agree with you Barfle, and I won't use this thread as a soapbox, out of respect, that our leaders lack accountability in general(maybe I'll take that rant up on the GB/JK thread<mischeivous grin smilie>).

<small>[ 06-07-2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Grrrr. Hit the wrong button. Again.

<small>[ 06-07-2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
...I am questioning this stupid tradition of honoring corpses...

SWAT!

This tradition is of considerable value to the grieving. It is NOT stupid. You may find it irritating to hear good things about a recently dead politician you didn't like, but that doesn't make the principle "stupid" any more than my irritation at your irritation makes YOU stupid.

Some of us have significant collections of dead people to whom we talk, at times. These collections tend to enlarge as we hit middle age and find ourselves at more funerals. And don't mock my dead people or I'll send my gramma's ghost to give you a severe talking-to some midnight while you're sound asleep.

Dead doesn't mean irrelevant. I'm sorry you're annoyed by our illogical social habits, and I did offer you a mint for your nausea, but it's not polite to dump vitriol over my traditions. Please stop.

[OperaTenor]

Now, before I say this, don't take me tooooo seriously, and I mean absolutely no disrespect....

BUT...

Isn't Buddha a corpse? And don't Buddhists all over the world erect statues and honor him?

Jim "I've seen the Daibutsu with my own two eyes" B.

[Nicole Marie]

Wow! Chill out! You are not reading this correctly. I find it 100% irritating that the media/society glorifies only the good parts of a person’s life. I am of the understanding that ALL PARTS OF A PERSONS LIFE IS GOOD, EVEN THE BAD. It makes us who we are and if we only pay attention to one part of it we do no justice to our ENTIRE life.

And my second point is, to me, death is not an end. I DO NOT believe in grieving over the dead. Death is part of life. And when we glorify death we do not do justice to the entirety of life. The old Irish funerals.

So thanks, for calling me stupid. Thanks for thinking I was talking about "your dead". Didn't say it was irrelevant, I just feel there are better way to deal with this. I've lost people too; you do not hold court on grief. But I do not feel terrible when a loved one dies. I know I will see that person again and that death is just part of living. Oh, and this is an open forum and we can post ALL of the millions of DIFFERENT beliefs that we have, so don't trash mine, I didn't trash yours, I questioned it. And if that's what you have a problem with then you may need to take a deep breath.

<small>[ 06-07-2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]</small>

[Nicole Marie]

Oh and OT, if find the statue thing not about his death. It's about his life. Honor the life not just the death. Honor the entire life, not just the parts that will sell papers and advertising time.

The way Buddhist deal with the body, it's just a shell folks, and you leave it out in nature. Let it biodegrade, go back to nature. When you embalm and preserve a body, that is an example of the living not being able to deal with death.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
Wow! Chill out!

Good idea. That is precisely what I asked you to do.

[OperaTenor]

Sorry, Y.R.H., I didn't mean to "trash" your beliefs, it just seemed like an inconsistency to me(that is, if that's what you took from what I said).

As I said in my previous posts, I'm not keen on the revisionism taking place in the media right now, either. However, it does seem to be a large part of our culture to express our grief by sharing rememberances. As for me, when people talk about me after I'm worm food(I'll actually be ashes), I just hope they don't make up stuff to make me out to be better than I was.

<small>[ 06-07-2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

ARGHGHGH! Can we switch the "Edit" and "Quote" buttons? Did it again....

<small>[ 06-07-2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Nicole Marie]

No OT, I meant Selma with the trash comment. Not you. You will take the time to look at someone's view. Love how, once again, she did not take a moment to see what I was talking about.

I don't think I'm inconsistent. I find it very difficult to communicate on the board. Here it is: Death is not an end, just a part of life. When I see the media picking apart someone's life to highlight only the stuff they think will sell ad space and papers: I find THAT STUPID.... (not you Selma or your belief). There are more important things they could point out about the world then this issue.

Further more, my points about society: If find it hypocritical that folks will pull out the tissue once someone is in the grave and glorify PEOPLE (not just dead presidents) and only say the nice stuff once your 6 feet under.