Flight 93 Memorial

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Flight 93 Memorial

Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:30 pm

The Belmont Club

“…Memorials are symbols above all and it may be inappropriate to commemorate Flight 93 with a Red Crescent facing Mecca.

…Looking at the architect's portfolio and the topography it was better than even odds he was going to come up with a semicircle somewhere and if you allowed for twenty degree arcs as the limit of suggestion, there was a 1 in 9 chance of an accidental orientation to Mecca because any azimuth has a reciprocal.

But memorials are what we perceive them to be; they rarely have an intrinsic value. They "remind" us of things, and it so happened that a design which was probably innocently conceived triggered certain unfortunate associations.

Symbols are powerful and dangerous to the unwitting. During the Stalin era, one man was sent to the Gulag because he hung his hat over Stalin's picture. It didn't matter that he was blind. It was the symbolism of his act that counted then.

Perhaps years from today no will object to Red Crescents displayed in conjunction with the victims of September 11, just as someday people may remember that Swastikas were widely employed as ancient religious symbols. One day, but probably not in 2005.”



I did the same research and came up with similar results. It’s quite amazing.
I’m not given to conspiracy theories (I leave those to OT :D ) and believe that as much as I dislike them, coincidences happen, but stil…….
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Flight 93 Memorial

Postby piqaboo » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:05 pm

churches also orient east.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: Flight 93 Memorial

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:11 pm

we're not talking east, we're talking a specific line to Mecca
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Flight 93 Memorial

Postby piqaboo » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:50 pm

I get that. Most folks wont figure it out.
The red crescent could be problematic. Perhaps switch to those purple round leafed trees instead, or to LiquidAmbar.

I follow the guy's well-stated argument. I am still wondering if I agree that its a problem.
If so, modify the curve to a semi-compound bow shape. Use purple trees. Call it a purple heart.
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Postby Shapley » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:25 am

This is sad:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12454358/

Sad, that is, because more Congressmen won't take a principled stand on the issue. I salute Congressman Taylor for standing on principle.

V/R
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:31 am

Sad......
This is an outrage.....
Words cannot express my feelings towards this bonehead......

Does this Einstein have a Website we can make comments?????
and let him know how ridiculous he is...........
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Postby Shapley » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:54 am

You can write him here:

http://charlestaylor.house.gov/WriteMe/write.htm

But is it really an outrage? I'm serious when I say that a much more modest memorial would be justified. So far, the memorial committee has raised only about a fourth of the $30 million needed to meet their obligation for half the cost of the memorial. In addition to which, the memorial will require a full-time groundscrew to maintain the landscaping. If the State of Pennsylvania or the city of Shanksville wants to raise a memorial, let them do so. But is it really a Federal responsibility to build such a memorial, let alone such an expensive one.

V/R
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:16 pm

Shapley,
I believe it is an outrage...
IMHO
Regards,
TM
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Postby Shapley » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:31 pm

TM,

You're free to write him and express your outrage. I think I'll write him and express my support.

Mind you, I'm not opposed to a memorial, I'm just opposed to this 'hundred-acre wood' that is called for.

V/R
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93 Monument

Postby The Great Carouser » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:16 am

Briefly,
These people and this event are deserving of some sort of National Memorial. I wonder at the 1200 acre proposal. I've e-mailed the NPS because I believe that to be around the size of the Gettysburg Cemetery. I think that much space is 'overkill'. I also think a scholarship would be great but a memorial is necessary. A simple memorial. Those passengers got news of what was happening and took steps to prevent it at huge personal cost. They were not service people or police. They had sworn no oaths.

Clearly they were at risk and this active plan was probably a desperate effort that offered at least a small hope of survival, but they did not have to do it. They could have taken the easy, passive way out and no one would have blamed them. Our country was/is probably safer and stronger for their efforts and we owe them just as we owe all those who lay down their lives for this country. Build them a monument....don't build them the Taj Mahal. The Wall in D.C., the Holocaust Memorial in Miami Beach are just two examples of smaller structures that speak volumes and keep alive the story of what people did.

By the way, the idea of the families' having to raise matching funds to insure a monument is particularly abhorrent in light of the nature of the sacrifice. I hope I misunderstood and the fundraising is only to get a 'large enough' monument in which case I feel its misguided.
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Postby barfle » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:12 am

Surprise! I'm with Shapley on this one, as well as GC.

No memorial can possibly be enough to compensate for the sacrifices made by those who died trying to save the flight, combating an enemy of the US in the process. Which means that if the entire state of Pennsylvania were made into a memorial, it would be insufficient.

I believe a memorial is a good idea, but this was not on a par with WWII veterans, who have a nice memorial on the mall in DC. The idea of a large, high-maintenance (EXPENSIVE) memorial in a place that's hard to get to is simply silly. It won't bring them back, and it won't help people remember their heroism.
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Postby The Great Carouser » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:58 am

The NPS was very quick with their response. The answer may surprise you, it surprised me!

The Soldiers' National Cemetery at Gettysburg National Military Park is
20.58 acres.

Katie Lawhon
Public Affairs Specialist
Gettysburg National Military Park
97 Taneytown Road
Gettysburg, PA 17325
phone 717- 334-1124 x452
fax 717- 334-1891
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Postby Shapley » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:08 am

The Shiloh Battlefield National Park is about 4,000 acres. But then, again, it commemorates about 24,000 soldiers who were killed, wounded, or missing.

Doing the math, the appropriate size for a memorial for 40 people would be about 7 acres.

V/R
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Postby piqaboo » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:18 am

I'm :
For a memorial.
Against a 1200-acre one.

I'm thinking 1/4 acre for the memorial and grounds, then a few acres parking. Fer petes sake, they want this thing bigger than SeaWorld.
Granted its infinitely more important than Seaworld, it is still improbable that more people will visit it in a day - even on anniversaries. Plus, I think a larger space would diminish the impact of the memorial. How big is the Arizona?

I'm for a memorial because these folks were very 'american' - they thought about what was happening and took action 'outside the box'. They overthrew a lot of cultural conditioning to fight back, and they worked as a team. And in doing so, they almost certainly saved a lot of lives.
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Postby DavidS » Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:12 am

Yes, whatever memorials are set up should reflect the nation's (and other nations') debt to the brave fallen and their families in their fight for humanitarian freedoms and values.
May I mention that yesterday Israel marked "Holocaust and Heroism Memorial Day", and next week "Fallen Soldiers Memorial Day" and Independence Day take place?
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Postby Shapley » Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:22 am

Hu-oh! Too many people are agreeing with me. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate my position! :D

V/R
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Postby jamiebk » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:42 pm

Well, I too find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Shapley. I grieve for the the people who died on Flt 93. They are heros. I don't know if any of you have every seen or driven by the site of the crash...I have. It is remote and situated in the open rolling hills of PA.

We don't need a National park built around this site...we need a rememberance...a marker...a place to contemplate what happened. A stone marker with the names and dates etc. would be ideal. The site IMHO, should be kept natural...dust to dust. Let the visitor simply remember. We certainly don't need 100 acres to do it in, nor a "visitor's center" with exhibits.
Jamie

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Postby dai bread » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:54 pm

piqaboo wrote:I'm :
For a memorial.
Against a 1200-acre one.

I'm for a memorial because these folks were very 'american' - they thought about what was happening and took action 'outside the box'. They overthrew a lot of cultural conditioning to fight back, and they worked as a team. And in doing so, they almost certainly saved a lot of lives.


They weren't all of American nationality apparently. Here is a profile of one of them.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=100&ObjectID=10378428
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Postby jamiebk » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:14 pm

They weren't all of American nationality apparently. Here is a profile of one of them.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?

Dai, I took the time to read this biography of this man. These were ordinary people who pereformed extraordinary feats in the midst of incredible, almost unbelievable circumstances. Heros to be sure. What's scary is that no one of us ever knows when we may be called to action in such a manner...I am not talking specifically about overtaking a group of terrorists on plane, but anywhere, any time...rush into a buring building, pulling someone our of a car, risking your life in any way to save that of another. We will never know unless we are confronted with that situation...and I pray that none of us ever will. I can't watch "the movie" but I would welcome a fitting memorial for these brave people...Americans or not.
Jamie

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Postby piqaboo » Mon May 01, 2006 11:53 am

Dai,
thats why I put 'american' in lower case and in quotes.
I was referring to a way of being that is certainly not unique to Americans, but that we treasure as part of our national identity.

Those who are not comfortable with big risks, do not come here. Its a long way from 'home'.
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