Veterans Day

[Haggis@wk]

This is Veterans Day in the U.S. and Remembrance Day in the British Commonwealth countries.

List those family Veterans guys! and yourselves!!

My dad, James B. Hogue, U.S. Army / U.S. Air Force 1942 - 1971, (deceased 2001, RIP, Dad)

Me, USAF, 1967 - 1995

MRHYN, USAF, 1967 - 1971

[Marye]

My uncles Ken, RCAF navigator in Africa (sadly passed on two months ago)and his younger brother, Keith, age 17, who followed his brother to war but he aboard the destroyer the HMC Restigouche one of the ships in the Channel on D-Day. I honour my father, Kirby (died 1997) Master Sargeant and Military Cop in the Canadian Army and my partner's father, Harley, engineer, in the Canadian Merchant Marine.

I honour their contributions when I wear a poppy.

[NateBrei]

My father-in-law, Robert George, who was a first lieutenant in Company M, 276th Infantry, 70th Division. He fought in the Allsace-Lorraine region of France from 12/44 until the end of the war & then remained in the occupying force until 7/46. He died about 10 years ago.

Nate

<small>[ 11-11-2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: NateBrei ]</small>

[tan]

Let us honour all those poor kids that got killed. and let us honour their families who stay behind!
is it not terrible that we send kids- who have not even experienced life to fight???
who are we to send children to war that are not even allowed to order a beer at a bar???
who are we to send and teach kids to kill?? who are we to teach human beeings to kill anywaY. TO PROTECT OURSELVES, YOU SAY. WELL SEND GROWN UPS NOT KIDS!!!
I DO NOT WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY, BUT PLUEESE... 18 YEAR OLDS.. MAKES ME THINK OF COUNTRY JOE AND THE FISH CHEER SONG- SHOULD ANYBODY REMEBMER THAT ONE...AND YES THE KIDS THAT GOT KILLRD DESERVE TO BE HONOURED, BUT WOULD IT NOT HAVE BEEN BETTER IF THEY STILL LIVED???

[Shapley]

tan,

I agree. However, since ancient times conscription has targeted young kids, both because they are healthier and because they are easier to train.

It is best not to have to go to war, but the best way to do that is to be ready to fight a war when threatened. A barking dog often backs down when you face it instead of running. Eventually, however, you'll run into a dog that doesn't back down, and then you have to be ready to stand your ground.

Unfortunately, we aren't educating our children well enough in issues of morality and ethics, in fact we have those who argue against teaching them in public schools. Therefore, when our children arrive on foreign soil, with little or no adult supervision, they don't know how to act, and they don't recognize that the people they've gone over there to fight and to kill are also human beings, and deserve dignity even at the end of a gun barrel.

On another thread, we had a discussion of the use of dehumanization as a tool in training soldiers to kill. Perhaps that, too, is why young people are sent to fight, they are easier to teach dehumanization too. It is easier to kill "Gooks", "Japs", "Chinks", "Krauts", "Wops", etc. if you think of them in those terms than in terms of human beings with families and friends and dreams and goals.

But there will always be war, and there will always be those who have to fight them, whether they support the designs of those who sent them, indeed, whether they even know the designs of those who sent them. It is entirely fitting that we honour those we send, who have served their country in war and in peace. It is not the wars we honour, but the people who stood ready to fight them.

V/R
Shapley

[tan]

Shap dear, as the dutch would say: we are both right...
just lost a mail so i try to recreate it: the major, an ex khmer rouge sung in the street this was not a song of kartaoke lost love, and i have known the man for many a year, his sofg is true:
we ate ,
when i was a kid- when i woke up, they all where dead/ then people caME IN BLACK PYJAMAMAS/ THEY TOOK ME IN/ I FELL ALSlEEP/ WHEN I WOKE UP/ THEY WERE DEAD ALSO/(B52 aTTACKS)/ THEN OTHER PEOPLE IN BLACK CAME/ THEY WERE MY FAMILY NOW/ WE SEND EVERYBODY TO THE CONTRY/ I WAS ,mAYBE 8 YEAsrs old/ they told me the people from the city were bad/ they made me kill them with a PLASTIC BAG/.. NOW MY COUNTRY KNOWS THEY WERE THE PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE SAVED THIS COUNTRY/ BUDDHA, WHAT CAN I DO?? I WAs just 8 years old...
just a song, when the tourists are gone.

[piqaboo]

My grandfathers
My uncle Michael
My great uncle Colin
My grandmother
my great aunt Leah
My husband

[Shapley]

tan,

Have you received your copy of Moitessier's book yet? I found his accounts of the war there impressive. He lived through the beginnings of what we call the Vietnam War, interred by the Japanese during the occupation, and then drafted to fight with the French during the aftermath of World War II. He witnessed the bombings by the B-52's prior to the Japanese surrender. He saw both cruelty and humanity by the Japanese, and the level of spite the French nationals felt for the Colonials when they arrived after the Japanese left. He left before the Americans became involved in the ground war there, but I found his accounts enlightening.

There is a gap in American education in that area between World War II and the Vietnam War, as if they are two seperate entities. It is only by reading local accounts (or French history) that you find that the Vietnam war was a continuation of the situation following World War II. I guess our focus was elsewhere from 1945 to the late 1950's, so I was never taught the connection. It is indeed sad that that area has known so much turmoil for so long.

Take care!

V/R
Shapley

[Shapley]

The years may be off by a little:

My Great Uncle Shapley - US Navy 1928 - 1932

My Uncle Tom - US Navy - Killed by Kamikaze attack 1945

My Uncle Shapley - US Navy 195?

My father - US Navy 1950 -1953

Myself - US Navy 1980 - 1986

My Brother Tom US Marine Corps - 1974 - 1976 & 1982 - 1986

V/R
Shapley

[tan]

90 percent of my family concentration camp, jewish and gypsy....and gay
ohh let us get together and find a way that it never happeans again!!!
there is a french song it translsALTES, IF ALL THE CHILDREN, ALL THE HUMAn beenings in the word would give each other a hand / we would form a cicle around the world, all the humans.

.. and that one to spice this site up: as to that. aCCORDING TO AUTHRITIES, THE NEXT TARGET OF THE MUSLIMS WILL BE PATTAYA. AW, WHY DO THEY NOT HIRE ME AS A CONSULTANT, HAVING maybe a SENSE OF HUMOr., IF IT WAS ME? I'D BLOW UP THEIR SEWAGGE PLANT. NICE: NOBODY DEAD. BUT: THAT RATHOLE DELUGED IN- EH- SHIT And used coNDoms, ... that would ber sooo nice. but of course...them FANAtics too stupid for that...

[tan]

Shap you are right, the vietnam war was a continuation of the- what we call here the second(?)vietnam war for freedom. of course in the days of the domino theory it did not matter which war it was. first, before the americans came we did not have b52 attacs, second CAMBODIA WAS ALWAYS NEUTRAL. OLK'SIHAOUK, SAy what you want of this tragic eeh 'situation triedto keep us out of the wat. a. we were neutrral, b. we were a non colonioalised country. c. we were well, just attacked...

[hal 9000]

Both my Grandfather's served during WWII- U.S. Army

My uncle- U.S. Navy 1950's

My step-father served in Viet Nam- U.S.A.F.

My sister- U.S.A.F. 1985-1995

Myself- U.S. Navy 1989-1995

[OperaTenor]

My father - 3rd Army(Patton), ETO, WWII. Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart with three oak leaf clusters. (RIP one week after Father's Day 1991)

Uncle Bob - USN, Pacific, WWII(RIP)

Uncle Dave - USMC, Pacific, WWII(RIP)

Brother Joe, USN, Submarines, early 70's

Me - USN, Submarines, 1980-89

<small>[ 11-11-2005, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Paternal Grandfather, WWI, Europe.
My father, US Army Air Corps, in North Africa.
My Aunt Marie, US Army, ambulance driver, in Europe.

[OperaTenor]

Hi Tanja,

I agree that sending our young, best and brightest out to die is wrong, and the precedent of history is no justification for it. We have all the tools to be peaceful as never before in human history, yet we still choose to fight.

There has to be a better way.

[Jane]

My Grandfathers: US Army, WWII
My Uncle: US Navy, Vietnam

[analog]

Great Uncle E. Frisch, WW1, his '03 Springfield still in a closet in Missouri. "I couldn't leave it behind - it got me out of too many scrapes."

Uncles Bud & Chet - WW2 Army Air Corps, Pacific
Aunt Ginny - WW2 Army nurse, stateside (California)

[Shapley]

I thought this belonged here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176252,00.html

V/R
Shapley

[Haggis@wk]

Shapley,

pretty moving stuff here

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/news/finalSalute/

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
Shapley,

pretty moving stuff here

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/news/finalSalute/

[snark] Hey Haggis,

Is that link just for Shap, or can the rest of us read it, too? [/snark]