"What Would Jesus Do?"

[DavidS]

Another point, BigJon: At the beginning of the 1st millenium, incumbancy of a rabbinical or scholarly position as an exclusive occupation was the exception rather than the rule; vide "Rabbi John the Shoemaker", or as the Talmud says: "Be a knacker (cut up animal carcasses) in the marketplace, but don't allow your livelihood to depend on others".

[bignaf]

Originally posted by DavidS:
BJ - as far as I know, Jesus is quoted in the Talmud as giving opinions on matters of (orthodox) religious law, as a recognised authority, under the epithet "Another Sage".

If you are reffering to "Acher," it refers to someone else. His name was Rabbi Meir, who then became a heretic. Jesus is never mentioned giving opinions.

Originally posted by DavidS:I think the account of his divergence from mainstream traditional attitudes of the time and his later history also appears there in some form.

It does, several times. He is mentioned as being a student of rabbi Jehoshua son of Perahia (not the pianist... :p ). but the timing is a little of, if that were so. so it seems he was a rabinical student, but is never mentioned as a rabbi per se.

<small>[ 03-22-2006, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: bignaf ]</small>

[bignaf]

he was not called rebbe. rebbe is a yiddish pronunciation of rabi, the original Hebrew title. no one at the time was called rebbe.

<small>[ 03-22-2006, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: bignaf ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I knew I should be nervous...

[OperaTenor]

Hi *ig,

In Jesus' time, would addressing someone as "rabbi" denote their actual title, or simply an acknowledgement of their apparent or actual expertise?

[bignaf]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Hi *ig,

In Jesus' time, would addressing someone as "rabbi" denote their actual title, or simply an acknowledgement of their apparent or actual expertise?

I'm not sure I understand the difference. there was an ordination process in those days. but Rabbi was not a job description. their job was sometimes as cobblers etc., but most often as teachers.

[bignaf]

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
I knew I should be nervous...

be nervous! be very very nervous!
(is it time to get the mothballs off my FRS? I haven't used it in years).

[Shapley]

This is just one man's opinion, but I think it has some merit:

http://www.kencollins.com/jesus-35.htm

V/R
Shapley

[bignaf]

"rabbi" in the passages he mentions, is only said by his disciples. "rabbi" means "my teacher," and is the form of address used by disciples talking to their teachers. so the only thing it proves is that the disciples were, surprisingly, Jesus's disciples!

[shostakovich]

From BigJon: "We don't have any record that Jesus was ever part of the Jewish religious establishment other than as an attendee. He was called rebbe (Teacher) because when he spoke it was obvious he was intimately knowledgeable of the scriptures just as the rabbis where."
---------------------------------------------------
When I first read this I wondered if you were saying Jesus was not Jewish. As I read through the thread, it seems that is NOT what you are saying. Now I'm just at a loss for what you ARE saying and what it has to do with what came before it. Please explain. Thanks.
Shos

[DavidS]

Originally posted by bignaf:

If you are reffering to "Acher," it refers to someone else. His name was Rabbi Meir, who then became a heretic. Jesus is never mentioned giving opinions.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you're right - I stand corrected.
Thanks!

[BigJon@Work]

Shos, The only part I edited in his quote was to change the word liberal to libertarian. Funny, no?

His post said Jesus was married as a requirement of his job and his bet was on Mary Magdalene as the likely wife. I responded to show OT that even if Jesus was called Rabbi, his title was not of the professional variety but as a matter of respect for his teaching abilities, so the “married, professional rabbi” rule was meaningless in his case.

Selma, no need for nerves, we have some pretty cool independent records of the thoughts and actions of the Jews at the time of Jesus. Little to none remains from the time of Moses and Elijah. Isn’t prophet the job title you are looking for with those two?

The Other big, I was taught that rebbe (rhymes with Debra minus the R) was a better English sense of the pronunciation of the Hebrew word. Was I taught wrong? What is the best way to pronounce it in English?

edited for acting like a horse's patoot on the intarweb

<small>[ 03-23-2006, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: BigJon@Work ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

I had to do a double take. I read what you first posted in "Today's Active Topics", *igJon, and then got here after you edited it.

I chuckled after my head finished spinning....

[BigJon@Work]

I can blame it on the recent upgrade to the bb software, which, BTW looks nice. And it is nice to have words instead of symbols for edit and quote so there won't be so many inadvertent posts. :p

<small>[ 03-23-2006, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: BigJon@Work ]</small>

[bignaf]

best way to pronounce rabbi as in the original is probably rah-BEE. this literally "my teacher." so it would sound silly to say his was a rabbi (he was a my teacher... ???).
in fact, this seems to imply that there was no such thing as rabbi as a job description. since the noun form (rav) emerged only later. (i think. David, do you agree?)

[DavidS]

Originally posted by bignaf:
best way to pronounce rabbi as in the original is probably rah-BEE. this literally "my teacher." so it would sound silly to say his was a rabbi (he was a my teacher... ???).
in fact, this seems to imply that there was no such thing as rabbi as a job description. since the noun form (rav) emerged only later. (i think. David, do you agree?)

Yes, that would be the best Hebrew pronunciation. The noun "rav" appears in similar form in other ancient Semitic languages, and basically refers to a great, revered, or highly respected person - a master or teacher. The "ee" at the end is the "possessive adjective" suffix equivalent to "my". Yes, the end consonant can also change in such constructions ("v"-->"b").
It was probably relatively recently (I don't know when for certain) that formal ordainment, based on a candidate's study attainments and personality criteria, was introduced - as opposed to direct appointment as a teacher, head of an academy, judge, or spiritual leader of a community.
The terms "Rabbi", "Rabbin" (French), "Rabbiner" (German) etc. might have developed in those forms (via Latin or Greek?) in incomplete grammatical understanding of the original.

[OperaTenor]

Aha. When *ig mentioned "rav", I thought something didn't quite jive. The temple choir I sing with for High Holidays does a song called "Shalom Rav", and I always thought that was addressed to God.

I know just enough sephardic(sp?) Hebrew to be dangerous.

[bignaf]

There was S'micha in those days. so there definitely has been a formal ordainment.
S'micha is beinf ordained to judge. so the Rabbi as a vocation exissted aming those who judged.
"rav" also means "much." tricky!! "shalom rav" means "much peace," and that prayer asks god to bless us with much peace. ("shalom rav" can also mean "hi rabbi"... but not in this case )

[OperaTenor]

It's all about context, right?

Thanks for indulging the borderline totally ignorant.



<small>[ 03-24-2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[DavidS]

OT - I guess you sing Psalms 119:165 - "Great peace have they who love Your law; nothing shall make them stumble."