National Debt

[Shapley]

Haggis,

President Nixon once said "The greatest work a man can do is to be a part of something bigger than himself".

The problem is that, today, A large number of Americans don't believe in any cause bigger than themselves. Nothing is worth dying for anymore. Nothing is worth the risk of dying for anymore. That's why we shut down the space shuttle program when the inevitable mishap occurs. That's why we want to pull out of Iraq at the first sight of American blood. There is no cause bigger than our own selfish selves.

We don't fight wars for noble reasons anymore. We're out for revenge. We'll put our troops in harms way kill one man (Osama bin Laden), but not to save the lives of thousands or guarantee the freedom of millions. Osama bin Laden matters, because we want our own selfish vengence. It's not even about justice, just revence. Posters here on the bulletin board have said so.

As DeMaitre' said, the world is a huge sacrificial altar, and the blood of humanity must continually be spilled upon it. Over there or over here, the sacrifice must be made.

V/R
Shapley

[shostakovich]

From Haggis: "Bosnia,
Absolutely the worst (and best) example you could have picked, Shos."
--------------------------------------------------
I didn't pick it. I didn't comment on it. I don't know enough about it.
Shos

[Haggis@wk]

oops, you're right, OT picked that disaster

[Shapley]

Haggis,

I picked Bosnia as an example of a war we were lied into by the Clinton administration.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
Nothing is worth the risk of dying for anymore. That's why we shut down the space shuttle program when the inevitable mishap occurs.

Oh, goody, a chance to hijack a thread!

I'm not going to tell anyone that space exploration can be, or even should be, safe. Personally, I find the fact that we didn't lose anyone during a space flight until the Challenger explosion nothing short of miraculous.

But the space shuttle, besides being inherently more dangerous than a Saturn IV, has failed its mission rather remarkably. For something that was supposed to be a cheap way of getting large objects and lots of people into space, it has proven that a government committee with unreliable funding is simply incompetent. I seem to recall Senator Proxmire griping about spending so much money on a space truck. The vehicle was supposed to take a lot of the romance out of space travel, make it safe and reliable and inexpensive. Clearly, it has done none of these things.

Now I well admit that a shuttle launch is spectacular. I've never actually had the chance to see one (I came close during one business trip to Florida, but it was scrubbed with seconds to go, then I had to go to my next meetings), but I've seen plenty on TV and the one in the IMAX film always draws wows from everyone in the audience. I have also seen the shuttle "Enterprise" at the Udvar-Hazy center at Dulles airport, and the sucker is enormous. Compare it to the Apollo module, and you can easily see how big a step we tried to take in developing the shuttle.

Unfortunately, we spent so much money on shuttles that we feel justified in throwing good money after bad. We need to get to work on a replacement, and if that means single-use rockets, then that's what it means. The idea of an expensive, reusable vehicle is admirable, but reuse of that vehicle costs almost as much as a new one would. Bad direction, engineering hampered by unreliable budgets, an environment that punishes those who warn of possible problems, and an obsolete design that was dangerous when it was new are all strikes that should have declared it out twenty years ago.

[Shapley]

Barfle,

I think the problem is that we've lost the pioneering spirit. The idea of a manned space station, a Moon base, a space elevator, a manned mission to Mars, or any other concept that requires great risk for questionable benefit excites so few people that is nearly impossible to justify the expense. The 'space race' was big news in the '60s and '70s, there was excitement, there was competition with the Russkies, there was drama. Nowadays, a shuttle launch doesn't rate the evening news unless something major goes wrong.

Maybe we've lost the ability to dream. Maybe there aren't enough people left who can see beyond the horizon. I don't know. I only know that Americans today seemed more worried about how they're going to die than how they're going to live. Spend the money that we waste going into space curing cancer, fighting aids, curing Alzheimer's, so that we can live sterile and boring lives well into our hundreds.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

Although I thought the Apollo project was worth doing, my concern is that it was done simply to show that we could do it - in other words, it was nothing more than a stunt. One that I believe was covered in the movie The Right Stuff (although I'll have to look at it again - and it's a long movie) to prove that "our Germans are smarter than their Germans."

If our goal had been to actually figure out how to live on the moon, find useful resources on the moon, or use it as a base for further exploration, then we would have continued our spirit of exploration, IMNSHO. Unfortunately, the project as defined by JFK, implemented by LBJ, and killed off by RMN, while advancing some science, simply showed we could do something romantic with no practical applications.

And I'm still amazed we didn't suffer any casualties in flight. We took a lot of risks in order to get there in 1969, and really only had two bites in the backside - Apollos 1 and 13.

[Shapley]

Barfle,

RE:[b]Killed off by RMN[/i]

How can you justify this comment. All of the Moon landings occured during his tenure.

V/R
Shapley

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Re the original topic, the debt.

I'm doing my bit. Signed and sending my tax paperwork, with checks attached. <resigned sigh>

Lots of other people who have to attach money are sending about now, too. There'll be a line at the post office.

[analog]

Originally posted by barfle:

Oh, goody, a chance to hijack a thread!

............. and an obsolete design that was dangerous when it was new are all strikes that should have declared it out twenty years ago.

Not to mention the one and a half million pounds of ammonium perchlorate oxidizer mainlined into the stratosphere from its boosters with every launch.
And the EPA blames our car air conditioners for chlorinating the ozone layer?


http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/nasafact/count2.htm

[jamiebk]

Hey come on folks....we got velcro out of the space program...where would we be without that!?

[piqaboo]

Oh god, Selma, did you have to say that?
Actually, its been a couple years since my traditional near-midnight trip down to the Midway postoffice branch. Im feeling nostalgic; perhaps I shall take the Altoid on her very first one.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

May I recommend the Margaret Sellers Processing and Distributing location, in Carmel Mountain Ranch. They staff the drive-through lanes, and one year there were high school clubs handing out aspirin packets and bottled water. Talk about community service!

[piqaboo]

Aspirin - sweet!
Nice thing about them - no matter how long you suck on one, it never loses its flavor!

I like the downtown branch - they put out guys with carts at all the major intersections around the block, so unless one is really determined to go to the PO itself (I have done this too), you get nicely intercepted. Plus downtown much closer to me than Carmel Mtn is.

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
Barfle,

RE:[b]Killed off by RMN[/i]

How can you justify this comment. All of the Moon landings occured during his tenure.

V/R
Shapley

Sorry, I didn't see this before, but since you ask, indeed all the landings that were made happened during his administration, but at least three more were planned, and they were cancelled during his administration.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/507/1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_18

[Shapley]

Barfle,

Interesting. But just how many rocks did we really need?

Of course, the fact that the landings occured during President Nixon's term adds fuel to the conspiracy theorists beliefs that they were faked. If they had occured during St. Kennedy's term, there would be no question concerning their authenticity.

We took the Boy Scout troop to the Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, AL, recently. They had a Saturn Rocket there undergoing renovation. Most of the 'rockets' there are just hollow shells, including the one at the Interstate rest area. I did not inquire where the Saturn was usually kept, but it was not a regular fixture at Huntsville.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
Barfle,

Interesting. But just how many rocks did we really need?

Lent is almost over.

Since you lost that argument, you are trying to justify the action instead? Nice bob and weave, but I caught you at it!

Lent is almost over.

You'll note that I criticized more Democrats than Republicans, yet you only felt like challenging the criticism of the Republican.

Lent is almost over.

If Kennedy (who was in the right place at the right time) had had the foresight to say "let's colonize the moon," then we would have had something to build on, but unfortunately, he didn't, and we don't.

Did I mention that Lent is almost over? I can feel the pressure building from here...

[Shapley]

Barfle,



Have a happy Easter!

V/R
Shapley

[OperaTenor]

Lent is almost over."

No worries, Shap blew it, at least partially.

[Shapley]

Barfle,

RE: NASA, rocks, and Nixon.

My comment wasn't entirely off-the-wall. The space program was defunded because of a lack of purpose. The 'Space Race' gave it purpose, we had to get to the Moon before the Russians did (well, at the time it seemed important

<small>[ 04-18-2006, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>