Katrina 2005

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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:34 am

OT,

I-10 East is impassible. It's been a few years since I was in NOLA, but it seems like I-10 west is elevated for a long distance west of the city. I know it is elevated throughout most of the city proper. The pic I linked to yesterday shows I-10 west where it crosses Lake Ponchartrain. Not very promising going that way. I think it is relatively easily repaired by barge-crane, provided the support piers have not been damaged in the collapse. Inspection, however, could take weeks, given the number of elevated piers along the route.

I drove through Northridge, CA, a couple months after the earthquake there. We had seen the pictures on TV of the collapsed freeways and overpasses, so I expected there to be major difficulties with traffic routes, but was amazed to see almost no signs of the damage which had looked so devastating a few weeks before. I think once they get past the shock and beyond the emergency nature of the situation, the rebuilding will take place at a high speed.

All those people will still be wanting to make a living, you know.

RE:And then they still have to deal with the filth, contamination, and disease

This is New Orleans we're talking about, they've been dealing with that for centuries.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:36 am

I think they need a little dutch boy. <smirk>


A lot of the older buildings in NOLA are brick. They'll be moldy, but they wont dissolve from the wet.

Based on what happened post-Andrew, today is about the time the ceilings start falling down in those houses with "just a little tile damage to the roof" but otherwise ok. That little tile damage let in an awful lot of horizontal rain....
(not that we're hearing about those houses, with all the major damage to report).
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby zlosin » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:42 am

Warm beer and a BBQ open in NOLA
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050831/lf_afp/usweatherfood_050831004814

Better then starving.

Just noticed, this is post 500. 1/2 way to first. KEWL

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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:45 am

The director of FEMA just announced GWB has authorized federal military support to the Gulf coast. Apparently, that will be in the form of air support for evacuating the area, and support from the Navy by having ships on the coast for evacuation, supply and medical services. There will also be ground troops to help with SAR and evacuation.

Hi Shap, I only drove through on I-10 once in 1981(on my way to nuc school, no less), so I don't really have any memory of how the road goes. I guess I got my east and west mixed up. If I-10 east is impassable, is that because fo the flooding I heard about?
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:56 am

Here's a shot of flooded NOLA
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:03 pm

There's a Navy amphib detatchment coming from Norfolk, and the Coasties are calling up some reserves and sending in cutters. The Navy group includes an amphib dock ship, and a salvage vessel.

I'm beginning to wonder if NO ought to forget all about dikes and flood walls, go the Venice route, make some high ground, and leave the river and lake levels somewhere below the basement. Do you suppose they're at the point where dredging up open canals and making islands would be about as much trouble as dike building and pumping?
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:07 pm

OT,

I-10 is flooded in parts, and the bridge is out. Here's another link to the photo previously linked:

http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8165/5m/images.sun-sentinel.com/media/photo/2005-08/19219848.jpg

This is, to the best of my recollection, is the point where I-10 crosses lake Ponchartrain into Slidell. Oak Harbour is on the East side of the lake, near Slidell, so the photo should be looking eastward along the interstate.

In the photo linked to by Piq, I believe the elevated roadway running across the city is I-10.

I believe there were reports of additional flooding or other blockage of I-10 East of Slidell, near the Mississippi line.

V/R
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:13 pm

Selma,

CNN had reported yesterday that the Navy had two ships on their way to the area, but did not indicate what type or from where.

The Navy has reported structural damage at the Pascagoula Naval Shipyard, and at the Pensacola Naval Air Station. They have not reported on the reserve facility at New Orleans, but I expect it was damaged and/or flooded as well.

V/R
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:18 pm

I'm amused by an article talking about FEMA.
They are looking into options for housing the now-homeless, and are considering "renting apartments". Where, I ask? and from whom - the people currently living in them? :cool: .
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby analog » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:18 pm

Originally posted by piqaboo:
Here's a shot of flooded NOLA
Katrina was about four or five times as wide as Andrew, and from the looks of Gulfport about same wind strength.. Andrew only wrecked from Florida City to Perrine - barely twenty miles. This one looks to have drawn nearly a hundred mile swath.

Weather service predicted it likely Ponchatrain would end up downtown. So FEMA brought trucks to a flood? Looks to me like small outboard boats would be a lot more efficient way to get around town and pluck folks from rooftops. One helicopter overhead coould direct fifty of them by handheld CB radio.

They cant fix the dike until the town fills up with water so the inflow stops . I'd start a Dunkirk style rescue, ferrying people to someplace where C130's can haul them out.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:30 pm

Didnt Andrew go pretty much straight across SoFl, while Katrina kept bouncing along the coast?

The surge is said to cause more damage than the wind, & Katrina's behaviour maximized surge possibilities.

So Fl also has the advantage of being a) above sea level and b) porous. It drains well.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:35 pm

Hi Shap,

All I know is what I heard Mayor Nagin talking about part of I-10 being flooded, and special pumps that were installed to keep it drained had overheated and failed.

I think Selma's idea has a lot of merit. Just think of the increase in tourism alone. Mardi gras on vaparettos?!
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:40 pm

Piq,

Following the track of Katrina, it seemed to go due North once it hit the coast. There's really not much distance from New Orleans to Biloxi, about 90 minutes by car. Katrina hit in the narrow strip between New Orleans and Gulfport, MS, travelling pretty much right along the state line that divides them. There are a few smaller communities along that path, Bay St. Louis (now nearly destroyed), Diamonhead, Kiln (where my friends live, we're waiting to hear from them), Pass Christian, Delisle, Long Beach. Lots of destruction there, from the scanty reports we've heard so far.

V/R
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:50 pm

There does seem to be a glaring lack of news from the area itself. I suppose that's because news people are mostly being kept out of the area?
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby analog » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:57 pm

Indeed Andrew came straight in perpendicular to the coast and did not linger. S Fla has yet another advantage, a convex shaped coastline where the water can't pile up very high. It just runs off to either side of the storm, like rain off a car windshield. By contrast look at the Mississippi Delta - it hangs out there like a big arm posed to trap a huge pile of that wind driven water right in the crook of its elbow.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:59 pm

Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:02 pm

analog,

You also have to factor in the fact that all that rain that is dumped as it heads up the Mississippi and Ohio valleys finds it way back down to Lake Ponchartrain before it can exit into the gulf.

V/R
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:12 pm

#30 is food for thought... it seems no provisions were made to help people evac who wanted to, despite mandatory evac order..... (such as extra train runs, busses etc)

#31 seems a master of misstatement. There's a 4-letter + ing that describes whats going on in that shot.

<small>[ 08-31-2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: piqaboo ]</small>
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby BigJon@Work » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:07 pm

Pardon my engineering mind, but aren't there hundreds of hotels between NO and Houston that would be much better equipped to take care of the Superdome shelterees than the Astrodome? What brilliant mind thinks a domed stadium would be a good long-term housing facility?

Also, if the casinos float, why weren't they towed out of harms way instead of being left to become battering rams to the entire waterfront?
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:20 pm

Big,

I think they want to keep the shelterees together, but I could be wrong. Also, it's much easier for the government to negotiate a long-term rental agreement with one entity (the owners of the Astro-dome) than with a large number of entities (individual motel owners).

The casinos float, but they do are not real sea-worthy. They are designed to rise and fall with the tide, but they have no motive power and no provisions for stability except the large number of pilings driven around them.

I believe that removing the pilings, provisioning the casinos for sea and arranging the tow would have required more time than was available between the time the hurricane was determined to be headed their way and the actual impact.

V/R
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