Wow! Our very own Maginot Line!

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Wow! Our very own Maginot Line!

Postby Shapley » Wed May 17, 2006 4:38 pm

Senate Votes to Build 370 Miles of Fence Along Border With Mexico

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195791,00.html
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Postby OperaTenor » Wed May 17, 2006 5:03 pm

"Wow! Our very own Maginot Line!"

And it'll be just as effective.

Sheesh. More dog-wagging at our expense.
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Postby BigJon@Work » Wed May 17, 2006 5:48 pm

OT, which army is going to attack that fence? Is the Mexican army massing for war?

Who wrote that article? My second grader can write better.
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Postby dai bread » Wed May 17, 2006 6:07 pm

I keep thinking of the fence the Israelis are putting up.

It's unkind of me, as the situations are quite different, but when I read of the American/Mexican fence I think of the Israeli/Palestinian one.

I think it was Piq who referred to the matter of overstayers. Here, they always marry & have children who are automatically citizens, and there's a great to-do when the overstayer is deported. Our govt. either has, or will soon, amend the law to deprive such children of automatic citizenship.
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Postby BigJon@Work » Wed May 17, 2006 6:10 pm

dai bread wrote: I think it was Piq who referred to the matter of overstayers. Here, they always marry & have children who are automatically citizens, and there's a great to-do when the overstayer is deported. Our govt. either has, or will soon, amend the law to deprive such children of automatic citizenship.

That seems pretty harsh to me.
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Postby Shapley » Wed May 17, 2006 9:55 pm

dai bread wrote:It's unkind of me, as the situations are quite different, but when I read of the American/Mexican fence I think of the Israeli/Palestinian one..


Interestingly, that was also my first thought. The Maginot line came later, as I tryed to figure out just how much of our border with Mexico 370 miles of fence would protect. I think it would leave more than the border with Belgium unguarded.

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Postby shostakovich » Wed May 17, 2006 10:16 pm

Do you think there will be an argument about which side to put the Alamo on? I seem to remember something about that.
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Postby DavidS » Thu May 18, 2006 1:59 am

Shapley wrote:
dai bread wrote:It's unkind of me, as the situations are quite different, but when I read of the American/Mexican fence I think of the Israeli/Palestinian one..


Interestingly, that was also my first thought. The Maginot line came later, as I tryed to figure out just how much of our border with Mexico 370 miles of fence would protect. I think it would leave more than the border with Belgium unguarded.

V/R
Shapley

I have often heard the Israeli border contrasted with the Iron Curtain.
The one was intended to keep people out, the other to keep them in.
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Thu May 18, 2006 2:26 am

BigJon@Work wrote:OT, which army is going to attack that fence? Is the Mexican army massing for war?

Would you believe that the Mexican government was already planning to file suit for offenses against the civil rights (!) of their citizens, should the National Guard arrest any Mexican nationals in the act of invading the US. You have to keep in mind how large the aggregate cash flow really is, that goes from the US into the Mexican economy in the form of those sent-home dollars. The Mexican government will never, ever, ever cooperate with us in any effort that would reduce that dollar flow.

BigJon@Work wrote:Who wrote that article? My second grader can write better.

Shameful, isn't it.
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Postby Serenity » Thu May 18, 2006 7:40 am

Where are they gonna build 370 miles of fence? The border is 2000 miles. Plus, won't they just tunnel under it? Why don't they just make it 2000 miles long and concrete so it's visible from space like the Great Wall of China?

Elections are coming up in Mexico. I see a lot of turmoil down there over this issue.
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Postby Shapley » Thu May 18, 2006 7:55 am

DavidS wrote:I have often heard the Israeli border contrasted with the Iron Curtain.
The one was intended to keep people out, the other to keep them in.


I was going to compare it with the Great Wall of China, but it won't have anywhere near as much architectural style. :D

V/R
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Postby Shapley » Thu May 18, 2006 8:00 am

Serenity,

We'll just put a mile of fence every five miles or so. That'll keep the stupid ones out, and save the smart ones the trouble of tunneling.

V/R
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Thu May 18, 2006 10:44 am

Texas has a river. I don't think they're planning to fence that. Some places are already fenced (we have a fence here in Sandy Eggo, I don't know how long it is. Not long enough, it would appear.)

FWIW, the Border Patrol says that it has caught 67,000 party crashers so far this year. In SoCal. :x
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Postby Shapley » Thu May 18, 2006 11:28 am

Serenity wrote:Why don't they just make it 2000 miles long and concrete so it's visible from space like the Great Wall of China?


We could probably use Mexican Labourers to build it, that would make it a lot cheaper to build.

Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:Texas has a river. I don't think they're planning to fence that.


Yes, but it's so thick with mud you can walk across it. :D

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Postby Haggis@wk » Thu May 18, 2006 3:14 pm

Rasmussen Poll


In every state surveyed except Massachusetts, at least 60% of respondents say we should "enforce existing laws and control the border before considering new reforms."

Serenity wrote:
"Why don't they just make it 2000 miles long and concrete so it's visible from space like the Great Wall of China?"


Urban legend, you can't see an Interstate highway and they are longer and wider than the GWOC

Dai:
"Our govt. either has, or will soon, amend the law to deprive such children of automatic citizenship."


It would be almost impossible to do that here.

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."


But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

"Anyone born inside the United States

Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe

Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.

Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national

Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year

Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21

Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)

A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S."


Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.
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Postby Serenity » Thu May 18, 2006 10:53 pm

The human eye can't see the Great Wall of China but you can see it with the right camera equipment, 600 km from space. That wall is 7240 km long! :shock: Hiking tours last 2 weeks! :shock:

http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/05/12.html

And here is a link with fun and interesting facts about GWOC:

http://www.chinahighlights.com/greatwal ... news_1.htm
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Postby dai bread » Fri May 19, 2006 1:10 am

BigJon@Work wrote:
dai bread wrote: I think it was Piq who referred to the matter of overstayers. Here, they always marry & have children who are automatically citizens, and there's a great to-do when the overstayer is deported. Our govt. either has, or will soon, amend the law to deprive such children of automatic citizenship.

That seems pretty harsh to me.


It is. But we have people coming here specifically to give birth. In the case of our Polynesian brethren, there is also the matter of our better hospital facilities.

I think what really triggered a serious investigation into changing the law was the case of a Japanese woman who had complications during the delivery, and whose case was therefore investigated pretty thoroughly. It turned out that she wanted citizenship for her child, so that visa problems would not arise in future should she wish to send the child here, e.g. for education. Quite a number of Japanese do that, though not as many as there were. As a citizen, the child is entitled to a free education anyway, plus health care, pension, etc.

Having given birth, these people walk off without paying, leaving us taxpayers to pick up the tab for their kid. Even if they pay the bill, it's often cheaper than they'd have to pay at home, and if they can walk off without paying at all, it's a very cheap birth. The cost of unpaid bills due from foreigners is millions of dollars per year.

Then there's the question of just who these people are. Mrs. Al Qeda, perhaps? A NZ passport is valuable. Ask Mossad, who tried to steal one & got caught.
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri May 19, 2006 2:57 am

dai, we have exactly the same situation. People come north specifically to have their child born in the US and thus gain US citizenship for that child. They often leave their hospital bill unpaid. It costs millions in unpaid hospital bills (which the hospitals try to recoup by overcharging the rest of us).
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri May 19, 2006 6:23 am

Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:dai, we have exactly the same situation. People come north specifically to have their child born in the US and thus gain US citizenship for that child. They often leave their hospital bill unpaid. It costs millions in unpaid hospital bills (which the hospitals try to recoup by overcharging the rest of us).



Selma is 100% correct....

Women are coming across the border..... have their baby....
Then we taxpayers get stuck with the unpaid bills.....

I have a very strong opinion on this...
Your child should not be granted citizenship if you came hear illegally to drop your load to take advantage of this "loose" situation.

The law must change.....
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri May 19, 2006 9:54 am

I don't actually think we should change the citizenship law to exclude some of the children born here from citizenship. It's a constitutional provision, it's clear and simple, and I think it's best left alone. There are both disadvantages and advantages to changing or not changing the law: that being the case I'd prefer to stay with the simple rule.

As matters now stand, a child born here to nonresident aliens is a citizen of the US but does not give the parents any right to stay here to raise that child.
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