Saint-Saens

Chat with other listeners of the Nicole Marie show here!
-- On the Air from 8 AM - 1 PM

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Postby bignaf » Tue May 30, 2006 12:01 pm

I was trying to avoid Schoenberg because I'm not sure what to answer regarding him. the 12 tone process is very cerebral, and Scheonberg did create matrices (sp? [matrix plural]) to assist him in writing the pieces. but it can also be seen as a purely musical process, similar to Bachs processes. Milton babitt, who built off Schoenberg's work, would employ math to find certain types of rows the are called "combinatorial". Schoenberg also used "combinatorial" rows, but found them by trial and error. so Schoenberg is borderline. but subjectively, I would call him mathemtical.
bignaf
1st Chair
 
Posts: 5291
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Judean Hills

Postby Shapley » Tue May 30, 2006 12:12 pm

My understanding of mathematical music is this: People try to break down the structure of musical pieces into mathematical formulae, and then decide which formulae create pieces which produce pleasing music versus those which produce noise. Mathematical music is then written to comply with these formulae.

I believe the ancient Greeks used such formulae in their music, if my memory of Music Appreciations class in high school serves me well. They defined music very narrowly, limiting it to certain 'perfect' notes and chords.

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby bignaf » Tue May 30, 2006 1:05 pm

Shapley wrote: They defined music very narrowly, limiting it to certain 'perfect' notes and chords.

V/R
Shapley

which is pretty much what we also do. common practice music revolves mostly around the major chord. the ntoes of which relate nicely with the root of the chord. the third is 3/4 of the root, and the fifth is 2/3 (string length). or in frequencies the third is 4/3 and the fifth is 3/2.
in that sense all music is mathematical, since it involves manipulating fraction of vibrating leghts, and multiples of frequencies.
bignaf
1st Chair
 
Posts: 5291
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Judean Hills

Postby Marye » Tue May 30, 2006 1:35 pm

Thank you Big and Shap. That was an interesting discussion! Where is the Math Prof Shos for his views on the subject? Now I am interested in discussing Quantum Mechanics. What do you know here Big? Shap?... maybe I need a new thread for that one: Music and String THeory.... :wink:
Marye
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Postby bignaf » Tue May 30, 2006 1:43 pm

:D that i can't really discuss... :)
bignaf
1st Chair
 
Posts: 5291
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Judean Hills

Postby piqaboo » Tue May 30, 2006 1:51 pm

originally posted by bignaf:
[qb] matrices (sp? [matrix plural])[/qb]

Yes.

String theory - if you have an important concert, your violin will break a string during warm-up. Corollary - the new string will go flat halfway thru movement.
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Postby bignaf » Tue May 30, 2006 2:32 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
bignaf
1st Chair
 
Posts: 5291
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Judean Hills

Postby Shapley » Tue May 30, 2006 3:06 pm

Quantum Mechanics? I've never worked on a Quantum, but I used to be pretty good at fixing my old pickup truck. :)
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Shapley » Tue May 30, 2006 3:09 pm

I suppose, along the line of Robert Pirsig's classic Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, we could create Music and the Art of Quantum Mechanics.

I'll create the thread, it'll be up to someone else to expand on it. :D
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: Mathematics and Music

Postby shostakovich » Tue May 30, 2006 7:57 pm

Marye wrote:Hi Shos,

Clearly, I am mathematics impaired as I am not sure I can fully appreciate the connection between mathematics and music. What are you seeing or hearing in Bach that leads you to say his music is mathematical? What piece of Bach's is more mathematical in particular?

Hi Big,

You clearly understand music, in some cases, to be mathematical as well. Is it the technical aspects that makes it mathematical? Is a piece of music that is difficult to play more mathematical? What would be a good example of a mathematical piece?

Mary


Hi Marye. Regularity of rhythm makes Baroque music in general sound mathematical to me. Bach was the ultimate architect. Counterpoint requires a sense of arithmetic (if not the more general "mathematics") to combine 2 or more melodies smoothly.
Sometimes I think of music "for the head" (needing analysis for great appreciation) as "mathematical", and music "for the heart" (appealing to the nervous system) as not especially "mathematical" (from Berlioz on through the 19th C).

As for Serial Music (e.g. Schoenberg), the idea of making a theme out of a permutation on 12 tones is a mathematical idea. I don't "like" the little serial music I've encountered, and have no interest in analyzing it.
19 8 15 19
shostakovich
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:01 am
Location: windsor, ct, usa

Postby Marye » Wed May 31, 2006 8:34 am

Ah... understand Shos. Hardly a comparison, I know, but I think of Pink Floyd's music as more intellectual than other rock music. Of course now that I think about it, I was smoking at the time :wink: ... did I or did I not inhale? hmmm :roll:

Music and the Art of Quantum Mechanics, Shap, I like it. 8)

Another SMOG advisory in South Ontario, DavidS... The warning is two week's earlier than last year.... must be coming from the U.S. :P
Marye
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Previous

Return to Nicole Marie

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]

cron