**Moderator:** Nicole Marie

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I was trying to avoid Schoenberg because I'm not sure what to answer regarding him. the 12 tone process is very cerebral, and Scheonberg did create matrices (sp? [matrix plural]) to assist him in writing the pieces. but it can also be seen as a purely musical process, similar to Bachs processes. Milton babitt, who built off Schoenberg's work, would employ math to find certain types of rows the are called "combinatorial". Schoenberg also used "combinatorial" rows, but found them by trial and error. so Schoenberg is borderline. but subjectively, I would call him mathemtical.

- bignaf
- 1st Chair
**Posts:**5291**Joined:**Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:01 am**Location:**Judean Hills

My understanding of mathematical music is this: People try to break down the structure of musical pieces into mathematical formulae, and then decide which formulae create pieces which produce pleasing music versus those which produce noise. Mathematical music is then written to comply with these formulae.

I believe the ancient Greeks used such formulae in their music, if my memory of Music Appreciations class in high school serves me well. They defined music very narrowly, limiting it to certain 'perfect' notes and chords.

V/R

Shapley

I believe the ancient Greeks used such formulae in their music, if my memory of Music Appreciations class in high school serves me well. They defined music very narrowly, limiting it to certain 'perfect' notes and chords.

V/R

Shapley

Quod scripsi, scripsi.

- Shapley
- Patron
**Posts:**15196**Joined:**Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am**Location:**Cape Girardeau, MO

Shapley wrote: They defined music very narrowly, limiting it to certain 'perfect' notes and chords.

V/R

Shapley

which is pretty much what we also do. common practice music revolves mostly around the major chord. the ntoes of which relate nicely with the root of the chord. the third is 3/4 of the root, and the fifth is 2/3 (string length). or in frequencies the third is 4/3 and the fifth is 3/2.

in that sense all music is mathematical, since it involves manipulating fraction of vibrating leghts, and multiples of frequencies.

- bignaf
- 1st Chair
**Posts:**5291**Joined:**Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:01 am**Location:**Judean Hills

Thank you Big and Shap. That was an interesting discussion! Where is the Math Prof Shos for his views on the subject? Now I am interested in discussing Quantum Mechanics. What do you know here Big? Shap?... maybe I need a new thread for that one: Music and String THeory....

- Marye
- 2nd Chair
**Posts:**1662**Joined:**Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:01 am**Location:**Toronto, Ontario, Canada

originally posted by bignaf:

[qb] matrices (sp? [matrix plural])[/qb]

Yes.

String theory - if you have an important concert, your violin will break a string during warm-up. Corollary - the new string will go flat halfway thru movement.

Altoid - curiously strong.

- piqaboo
- 1st Chair
**Posts:**7135**Joined:**Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am**Location:**Paradise (So. Cal.)

I suppose, along the line of Robert Pirsig's classic Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, we could create Music and the Art of Quantum Mechanics.

I'll create the thread, it'll be up to someone else to expand on it.

I'll create the thread, it'll be up to someone else to expand on it.

Quod scripsi, scripsi.

- Shapley
- Patron
**Posts:**15196**Joined:**Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am**Location:**Cape Girardeau, MO

Marye wrote:Hi Shos,

Clearly, I am mathematics impaired as I am not sure I can fully appreciate the connection between mathematics and music. What are you seeing or hearing in Bach that leads you to say his music is mathematical? What piece of Bach's is more mathematical in particular?

Hi Big,

You clearly understand music, in some cases, to be mathematical as well. Is it the technical aspects that makes it mathematical? Is a piece of music that is difficult to play more mathematical? What would be a good example of a mathematical piece?

Mary

Hi Marye. Regularity of rhythm makes Baroque music in general sound mathematical to me. Bach was the ultimate architect. Counterpoint requires a sense of arithmetic (if not the more general "mathematics") to combine 2 or more melodies smoothly.

Sometimes I think of music "for the head" (needing analysis for great appreciation) as "mathematical", and music "for the heart" (appealing to the nervous system) as not especially "mathematical" (from Berlioz on through the 19th C).

As for Serial Music (e.g. Schoenberg), the idea of making a theme out of a permutation on 12 tones is a mathematical idea. I don't "like" the little serial music I've encountered, and have no interest in analyzing it.

19 8 15 19

- shostakovich
- 1st Chair
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:01 am**Location:**windsor, ct, usa

Ah... understand Shos. Hardly a comparison, I know, but I think of Pink Floyd's music as more intellectual than other rock music. Of course now that I think about it, I was smoking at the time ... did I or did I not inhale? hmmm

Music and the Art of Quantum Mechanics, Shap, I like it.

Another SMOG advisory in South Ontario, DavidS... The warning is two week's earlier than last year.... must be coming from the U.S.

Music and the Art of Quantum Mechanics, Shap, I like it.

Another SMOG advisory in South Ontario, DavidS... The warning is two week's earlier than last year.... must be coming from the U.S.

- Marye
- 2nd Chair
**Posts:**1662**Joined:**Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:01 am**Location:**Toronto, Ontario, Canada

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