What defines Operetta?

[piqaboo]

And why is Mozart's Magic Flute not considered operetta?
It has a happy ending & spoken dialog. Color me confused.

[bignaf]

it is an operetta, but in German they were called singspiel in the 18th century. Magic flute is definitely a singspiel. At the time The magic Flute was considered sophisticated pop music.

[piqaboo]

My confusion stems because of the following local oddity -
SDO (San Diego Opera) only performs "Opera".
Operetta is the purview of the San Diego Lyric Opera company, formerly known as the Comic Opera.
But, SDO does Magic Flute and SDLO doesnt.

I guess its: "For Mozart, we can make an exception, nu?"

[bignaf]

they're wrong.
I guess they go by what modern people expect. which I guess is something with more syncopation, and less complicated orchestral parts...

[jamiebk]

Opera - A drama where the words are sung instead of spoken.
Operetta - A short light musical drama.

[piqaboo]

jamiebk, so where do you put The Magic Flute? WestSideStory?

[OperaTenor]

The lines tend to blur.

Remember, SDO put on Die Fledermaus a couple of years ago, and that's definitely light opera.

IMO, Magic Flute's inclusion in the heavier genre is more snob factor than anything else, by virtue of Mozart having composed it. But, as always, *ig's right - it technically is singspiel.

[barfle]

West Side Story is a musical, since most of the dialog is spoken. Hmmm, is there ANY sung dialog? Certainly no recitativo. Back to the basement to check!

[bignaf]

the point is that also in Magic Flute most of the dialogue is spoken. Piq is questioning the prevalent perception of divion between opera and operetta (and its synonyms), and people just reply with repeating the prevalent opinion.

A even more interesting case in point is Der Freischutz by Weber. also in it most of the dialogue is spoken, yet it wasn't considered a Singspiel. It has a moderately happy ending, it the moralistic manner of Magic Flute. This is almost definitely an opera, yet it derives from the singspiel tradition, and leads to Wagner. interesting juncture.

[Shapley]

Was the term operetta in use at Mozart's time? I don't recall hearing that term applied to music from that period. I did notice that, while Googling, that some opera companies refer to it as an operetta, others as an opera.

While hardly definitive, Wikipedia dates operetta only back to the middle of the 19th century.

V/R
Shapley

[bignaf]

operetta as a musical form is older than opera, it dates back at least to medieval times. In mid-1800's the started callng it operetta. In German countries at Mozart's time it was called singspiel.

[Shapley]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while opera written in the style of an operetta existed before the term, is it correct to apply the term retroactively to such works? Comic Opera, Singspiel, etc., were terms employed before the term operetta, and would be more correctly applied. Again according the flawed Wikipedia, Singspiel is defined differently from operetta, and associates it more closely with musicals such as West Side Story than with operettas such as Pirates of Penzance.

I'm hardly one to argue semantics, but since it seems to be the basis of a turf-battle between the two Sandy Eggo Opera troupes, there seems to be the need for more than a casual defining line between the two. I would think chronology would be the most logical, just as we use it to define the difference between Classical, Baroque, and Romantic Music.

V/R
Shapley

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

West Side Story is a musical, since most of the dialog is spoken. Hmmm, is there ANY sung dialog? Certainly no recitativo. Back to the basement to check!

I'm not sure that sung dialogue is a defining characteristic. Seems to me that Oklahoma has sung dialogue. Come to think of it, it also has a silent ballet, the dream sequence. :hmmm: :thinking:

Maybe Oklahoma is really light opera?

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Resorting to my dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, we have:

Grand Opera - 1. A serious or tragic opera for which the entire text is set to music.

Comic Opera - An opera or operetta with a humorous plot, generally spoken dialogue, and usually a happy ending.

Soap Opera - 1. A drama, typically performed as a serial on daytime television or radio, characterized by stock characters and situations, sentimentality, and melodrama.

Horse Opera - A film or other theatrical work about the American West

Light Opera - see operetta

Operetta - Also called light opera. Italian, diminutive of opera, opera.

Singspiel - German musical comedy featuring songs and ensembles interspersed with dialogue.

Ed remarks, "They left out space opera!"

Operetta and Light Opera seem to be an undefined mutually referencing term set that is associated with "Opera" but is not "opera". The differences are not specific. I have a feeling that if Gilbert and Sullivan wrote it, it's called an operetta; if Mozart wrote it, it's called an opera; and if Lerner and Lowe wrote it, it's a musical. We may be dealing with a very subjective status-based selection, mediated by theater critics.

[barfle]

I'm not sure that sung dialogue is a defining characteristic. Seems to me that Oklahoma has sung dialogue. Come to think of it, it also has a silent ballet, the dream sequence. :hmmm: :thinking:

Maybe Oklahoma is really light opera?

I'm no authority, but what sung dialog there might be in Oklahoma seems to be duets. Back to the basement to check, that, too. But not tonight. So You Think You Can Dance is on. For two hours. All new.

[Shapley]

And where does that put Fiddler on the Roof?


I only know that Nicole Marie will not play it if it's a musical, such as West Side Story, She apparenlty also does not play Operetta, as I recall her rejecting a request for Gilbert and Sullivan, but she will play comic opera such as The Magic Flute. There must be some criteria she uses to determine which is which, perhaps she'll weigh in with that information.

V/R
Shapley

[Catmando]

My compilation disk of Mozart includes 3 tracks from The Magic Flute.

The insert describes it as an opera.

Although it's a bargain Madacy Entertainment disc, I think I paid $3 for it, which may explain why it lists it as an opera.

[piqaboo]

I find no issue with applying a recently coined term to older art or other forms. We change the names of dinosaurs all the time, as we understand more about them. The lesser panda has been reclassified 2x in my lifetime.

Same thing with operetta. If operetta is essentially a synonym for singspiel or comic opera, then there is no reason not to apply it retroactively.

I dont care if SDO or SDLO "claim" a piece. I am intrigued that different opera companies classify ZauberFlote (sp?) differently. I'm also intrigued that as this discussion develops, the difference appears to hang more on plot line than on musical style, vocal requirements, etc.

So far, no one has proposed that opera requires better singing, better voices, or what-have-you. So opera/operetta seems more like a cheatsheet to know whether you will get a happy ending or not.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Bingo: A decent definition, with background and development. From Answers.com I have:

operetta, type of light opera with a frivolous, sentimental story, often employing parody and satire and containing both spoken dialogue and much light, pleasant music. In the early 19th-century opéras comiques of Boieldieu, Auber, and Adolphe Adam, there was a growing tendency toward sophistication, preparing the way for Offenbach, who during the French Second Empire created the operetta. The distinction between the operetta and the lighter examples of opéra comique that immediately preceded it is hard to draw; in general the opéra comique makes some appeal to the sentiments, while the French operetta attempts only to amuse. The Viennese operetta, dating from c.1870, did not have the excellent librettists that the French enjoyed; the operettas of Johann Strauss the younger suffered from this defect. Those of Suppé owe much of their virtue to Offenbach's influence. Less distinguished are the products of the early 20th cent., represented by the works of Franz Lehár and Oscar Straus. The immortal operettas of W. S. Gilbert and Sir Arthur Sullivan were to London of the 1880s what Offenbach's works had been to Paris 20 years earlier. The noteworthy composers in American operetta are Victor Herbert and Reginald de Koven. After World War I operettas gradually gave way to musical comedies (see musicals).

Apparently, the presence of spoken dialogue and frivolity are marker characteristics for "operetta".

[bignaf]

Resorting to my dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, we have:

Grand Opera - 1. A serious or tragic opera for which the entire text is set to music.

Comic Opera - An opera or operetta with a humorous plot, generally spoken dialogue, and usually a happy ending.

wrong.