Barenboim, The Devil, and Non-Experts Spewing

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Barenboim, The Devil, and Non-Experts Spewing

Postby bignaf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:00 pm

here is what we discussed on the thread called "musical wish list," really evil hijack...:
DavidS
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:53 am Post subject:

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bignaf wrote:
Catmando wrote:
bignaf wrote:
(and Daniel Barenboim's haed ona silver platter, as a side dish).


What's wrong with Daniel Barenboim?

I don't lik ehis conducting, and his personality annoys me. as well as his voicing an opinion, loudly and repeateadly with a sense of superioirty, about things he has no clue about, i.e. politics.


He's not the first artist to get *unnecessarily* involved in such stuff - remember Beethoven and Verdi (whom we now forgive). Richard Wagner, Ezra Pound, and Yehudi Menuhin?
What gets my goat is clerics getting into that minefield...
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bignaf
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:27 am Post subject:

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Catmando wrote:
bignaf wrote:

I don't lik ehis conducting, and his personality annoys me. as well as his voicing an opinion, loudly and repeateadly with a sense of superioirty, about things he has no clue about, i.e. politics.


I don't have any of his work as a conductor. And I don't know about his opinions/sense of superiority, views on politics etc. I'm not *ig into politics anyways (blame that on me being Canadian......or G.W. Bush )

I do have Barenboim's work for Beethoven's complete piano sonatas, and I do enjoy them.

he was a good pianist, but he isn't anymore. he hardly plays solo piano stuff anymore.
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bignaf
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:

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DavidS wrote:
bignaf wrote:
Catmando wrote:
bignaf wrote:
(and Daniel Barenboim's haed ona silver platter, as a side dish).


What's wrong with Daniel Barenboim?

I don't lik ehis conducting, and his personality annoys me. as well as his voicing an opinion, loudly and repeateadly with a sense of superioirty, about things he has no clue about, i.e. politics.


He's not the first artist to get *unnecessarily* involved in such stuff - remember Beethoven and Verdi (whom we now forgive). Richard Wagner, Ezra Pound, and Yehudi Menuhin?
What gets my goat is clerics getting into that minefield...


What bothers me is when an artist who has no special insight into an issue, and isn't particularly briliant aside from his/her artistic talent (which is great but not applicable) uses his/her fame (earned through art) to proclaim their political beliefs. the latter on your list also annoy me a lot.
Beethoven isn't relibly recorded using his position to rally support for one or other. in fact, he was more in support of a general sense of morality than a specific person (OK, he liked Napoleon for a while, but learned his lesson). Verdi definitely didn't suffer from a sense of superiority in that regard.
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DavidS
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject:

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I quite agree with you, bignaf.
It's not a matter of a superiority complex - but just that it's best for everyone to have the sense to keep to his own field.
I do appreciate Beethoven all the more for calling his the 3rd symphony by the non-committual name "Eroica" (if it was he that that stuck the name to it), and nowadays we can understand and approve the Italian nationalistic message Verdi was delivering in some of his operas.
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Selma in Sandy Eggo
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:06 am Post subject:

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Absolutely right. It's just that, once you get to feeling like you're really at the top of your game and you're pretty smart, a person starts thinking that all their opinions are expert opinions.

There are several things that I do exceptionally well. This gives me the smarts to tell, say, Bignaf what music is good? Or tell OT how the piano should be rebuilt? Or barfle how the tubafors should be mounted?

I should stick to things where my expert opinion has actual weight and substance, where I really know something. This also applies to pop stars, religious leaders, and lemming herders.
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DavidS
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject:

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[quote="bignaf"][quote="Catmando"]bignaf wrote:

he was a good pianist, but he isn't anymore. he hardly plays solo piano stuff anymore.

And you know sump'n?
I find it hard to forget the way he treated that wonderful lady Jacqueline du Pré in her hour of need.
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shostakovich
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject:

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Hi David. How did he treat her? Inquiring minds want to know.

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bignaf
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject:

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I think he continued his tours while she was dying...
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bignaf
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject:

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Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:
Absolutely right. It's just that, once you get to feeling like you're really at the top of your game and you're pretty smart, a person starts thinking that all their opinions are expert opinions.

There are several things that I do exceptionally well. This gives me the smarts to tell, say, Bignaf what music is good? Or tell OT how the piano should be rebuilt? Or barfle how the tubafors should be mounted?

I should stick to things where my expert opinion has actual weight and substance, where I really know something. This also applies to pop stars, religious leaders, and lemming herders.


In my opinion you took it too far (or at least what you seem to convey). people should still have opinions, but they should realize that their views, outside their expertise, are just part of the chaotic mass from which consensus is formed. whithin the chaotic mass there will be many small-sample-size peaks and valles, but overall, the consensus emerges. this consensus should be massively influenced by experts; however, when people who are not experts achieve an external power to shape consensus, the system is jeopardized. in other words, the universe is about to be destroyed by the incosistencies generated by Barenboim. Barenboim is destroying the universe. in other words, Barenboim is the devil. ummm... how did I get here???

so basically, you're allowed to tell me what music is good, but I am even more allowed to temper that observation with my own knowledge.

I must also strongly disagree with your assesment of lemming herders. Lemming herders are actually the only people who are experts in everything. In fact, everyone would benefit from going on a pilgrimage to gain some insights from the Lemming herders.

and here is my prophecy for the end of days: The Master Lemming Herder and Barenboim will clash in a great battle, which the Master Lemming Herdfer will win with a well aimed lump of lemming dung.

peace.
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Shapley
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject:

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Bignaf,

I agree. It's not the celebrity's opinions that are annoying, it's the fact that some people, and the media that portray them, give their opinions greater weight than anyone elses. There is nothing that says that George Clooney's knowledge on politics is any more valid than anyone elses, but he gets airplay because of his celebrity status. It's fine that he has an opinion, but so what. So does everyone else.

V/R
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DavidS
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject:

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bignaf wrote:
I think he continued his tours while she was dying...

I won't mind being proven wrong, but my impression was that it was more than tours.
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bignaf
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:19 am Post subject:

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DavidS wrote:
bignaf wrote:
I think he continued his tours while she was dying...

I won't mind being proven wrong, but my impression was that it was more than tours.

oh right, forgot that. yeah.
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BigJon@Work
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:21 am Post subject:

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I keep thinking of George Soros when you talk about someone who's opinions outside his field of expertise aren't worthy of the attention they get.

Take this to the Debate Team if you want to reply, please. I don't want to junk up this forum.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:26 pm

Thanks for moving this here.

For some reason I've not figured out, this does not show up in the 'View Posts Since Last Visit' window on my computer. Could it be because it's a new topic? If so, I wonder how many other new topics might be missed if a person relies on the forum to sort the posts for us?

Chris? Sarge? Are you still lurking?
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Postby Catmando » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:13 pm

Yes, thanks for moving this here. I didn't want to have to clean up the bloody mess from the Barenboim guillotine. :lol:

......although, speaking of decapitations, there was a doozy in the remake of The Omen. :shock:

My girlfriend and I went to see it last night. I'd give it a 3.5 out of 5 for the horror movie fans out there.

Sorry about the minor hijack, although I do have the words, bloody, Barenboim, guillotine and decapitation which relate. :twisted:
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Postby bignaf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:56 pm

It showed up for me in the new posts thingy. I bet Barenboim is trying to block this thread.
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Postby bignaf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:00 pm

BOT, I think we agreed that Barenboim is less desirable than, say, Karajan. Yes?

definitely, Karajan was just a Nazi, not as bad as Barenboim. (Karajan joined the Nazi party for selfish reasons, but his behaviour towards Jews after the war never left anything to be desired).
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