Sports and performance enhancing drugs

[Schmeelkie]

barfle: That's not what I said. Clearly, instant replay could correct bad calls by umpires. But baseball doesn't want to do that. It's not impossible at all. It's been considered and rejected by the sanctioning body.

Besides - baseball games are long enough. which is probably why they didn't approve it's use. Baseball has 160 games - your team is probably going to even out in the end of being on the right or wrong side of disputed calls. That's just probability talking. It's just in the postseason where people have more of a reason to get upset about this kind of thing. Football can get away with it since they only do 16 (is that right?) games. Already slow or really fast sports (eg, soccer or tennis) would probably be more hurt by instant replays than football.

[Shapley]

"The judges decision is final" is the term we're looking for here. It doesn't matter if the call is correct or incorrect, the judge has the final say, so that the decision is made and the matter settled on the field of honour.

Do we really want baseball games, etc. decided through endless litigation? Do we want the World Series victory tied up in court battles for years, or even decades, as teams of lawyers debate whether the instant replay really shows a fair ball or an out? Let the judges decision remain final!

That's one of the things I hate most about football. They don't have faith in their referees. Part of the fun of sport is arguing with the ref, knowing that you have no power at all to alter his decision. Kind of like cursing the darkness.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

There are some sports where electronic sensors determine things like fair or foul, along with photo finishes and extremely precise timing.

While I'm not all that concerned about a few bad calls by referees, the point I was making is that not all sports try to remove the human element from the rules enforcement. Whether that's good or bad is simply an opinion.

The issue, again, though is performance enhancing drugs, and whether or not the rules banning them are properly applied. I'm close enough to technology that I can't help but believe mistakes are being made, which destroys careers. Maybe not a lot of mistakes, but when you're dealing with someone with the potential of making millions of dollars (whether you feel they're worth that or not) as an athlete, you really need to have your act together.

[Andy Warton]

I have to keep reminding myself that when you guys say "football" you don't mean "soccer."

barfle,

I honestly don't think either of us can benefit from this discussion any further; if only one of us believes that there is morality in sport (and I do, despite your - frankly insulting - allusion to some sort of conscious naivety on my part) then we simply aren't going to agree on anything important.

And again, I must ask - however bad doping is now, how is abandoning these laws going to improve anything? It may be a recognition of the state of sport today; but it's also a dangerous move, both in terms of health of the athletes, and of the morality and sense of fair play which I (and any good sportsman) believe is integral to sport.

[BigJon@Work]

That's one of the things I hate most about football. They don't have faith in their referees. Part of the fun of sport is arguing with the ref, knowing that you have no power at all to alter his decision. Kind of like cursing the darkness.

It's football that is stupid with the endless litany of rules and rules changes. No one man could keep up.

[Shapley]

My point on the judges decisions lies in the impermanency of a victory. If the test are to be administered, they need be done so before the sport, and the results revealed by the time the contest is over. It is unfair not only to Landis, but to the other competitors, to withdraw his victory as an afterthought. If he was to be disqualified, it should have occurred before he crossed the line, or announced at that time.

Fame is fleeting, even for the fleet of foot, it seems. Now anyone can be stripped of their medals, at any time. The day may yet come when someone analysis a follicle of Babe Ruth's hair, and determines that his blood was tainted with this or that foreign substance, and then we get yet another asterisk in the history books. It's gone to far, in my view.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

I honestly don't think either of us can benefit from this discussion any further; if only one of us believes that there is morality in sport (and I do, despite your - frankly insulting - allusion to some sort of conscious naivety on my part) then we simply aren't going to agree on anything important.

And again, I must ask - however bad doping is now, how is abandoning these laws going to improve anything? It may be a recognition of the state of sport today; but it's also a dangerous move, both in terms of health of the athletes, and of the morality and sense of fair play which I (and any good sportsman) believe is integral to sport.

I'm sorry if I insulted you, but I still feel there's a big difference between morality and voluntary participation in an activity.

At the risk of repeating myself, the rules against doping are enforced very poorly. This penalizes the participants who follow the rules. As I see it, there are two ways out of this situation. Figure out a way to enforce the rules so that everyone involved knows they can't get away with cheating, or do away with the rule.

As far as the health of the athletes is concerned, I'm pretty sure I already addressed that issue, since participating in many athletic endeavors involves risk to one's health and well-being.

[Giant Communist Robot]

only one of us believes that there is morality in sport (and I do

Hey! Arguing from different premises here? Littman, writing in "The Greek Experiment," told a story of a man who was the fastest runner in Greece, but then he lost a race. He snuck up behind his opponent and killed him--and he was admired by the Greeks, because he had exacted revenge on his opponent, and doubly admired because he was now the fastest runner in Greece again. Maybe this is where the 'win at any cost' attitude comes from, since ancient Greece is often considered to be the foundation of Western civilization and maybe we are ancient Greeks by proxy.

Andy's 'sportsmanship in sports' idea looks a little suspicious to me. I think I smell an upper-crust meme to separate the elite from the working class. But I could be wrong.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

only one of us believes that there is morality in sport (and I do

Hey! Arguing from different premises here? ...Andy's 'sportsmanship in sports' idea looks a little suspicious to me. I think I smell an upper-crust meme to separate the elite from the working class. But I could be wrong.

Hey, y'all, don't get yer panties in a twist! I think it's a combination of cultural and generational differences. We lot are a generation or so ahead of Andy, and survived the '60s. In the case of Barfle and myself, we survived the 60's in southern California. You lot in Hawaii tend not to be all that uptight, either. Andy is a very serious English student, of a scholarly and diligent bent. (I strongly suspect that he'd be shocked blue if he met the girl I was at 17.) I find him charming and expect that he's going to be a magnificent man in just a few years; he on the other hand seems to find us just a little bewildering but interesting, on the whole. I hope there are other people somewhere out there raising more folk just like him.

Doesn't change the fact that he's a bit of an idealist and barfle is a bit of a cynic. For myself, I don't particularly care what professional athletes take for dietary supplements; it's not as if it were serious, like stock car racing.

[Andy Warton]

I find him charming and expect that he's going to be a magnificent man in just a few years

Why, Miss Selma, you make me blush! As for my being an idealist - you're completely right to say so (my deepest fear is one day having to actually live in the real world).

Selma, always ready with something wonderful to say - thank you.

... but who told you I wore panties???

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

... but who told you I wore panties???

Unsupported assumption on my part. Does your side of the pond still use "knickers" for the expression?

Actual information concerning your choice of underwear need not be disclosed. Thankyouverymuch.

[Andy Warton]

Does your side of the pond still use "knickers" for the expression?

Not in England. But my Nigerian family does sometimes - it used to really embarass me and my brothers when we were younger.

[piqaboo]

Selma is right, it would be entirely unsporting to ask you to reveal your choice on this here public forum.
My family still uses the word 'knickers' on occasion.
One also washes one's face with a flannel,
and parks in the gar'idge not the garahhhhj.

[Serenity]

I just find it odd that the league is against performance-enhancing drugs yet show commercials for Viagra at every opportunity

[piqaboo]

Serenity, LOL!!!

[Shapley]

I just find it odd that the league is against performance-enhancing drugs yet show commercials for Viagra at every opportunity

Good point. If anything will give you a leg up, that will. It's definitely an advantage in a stiff competition.

[piqaboo]

Does it come packaged with ibuprufen, in defense against the age-old head-ache that often accompanies such a rigid approach?