They're trying to take away another freedom.

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Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:59 pm

mmmmm. Horse! Now that the bill is passed, where will we get our Horseradish? :D

Actually, slaughtering horses for food has been illegal in Missouri for a couple of decades, ever since some French outfit was going to put in a slaughterhouse to process the horses that the State of Missouri was going to slaughter anyway....go figure.

Eventually, they established a wild horse and burro adoption program that allows people to take the wild animals, as long as they can prove they have facilities to keep them and they aren't French, or something like that. Now, only the ones that nobody (except the French) want are slaughtered, and then the meat is mercifully thrown to the dogs. It's much more humane than having humans eat them.

We also banned the importation of dog-hide clothing articles from China, such as ski-boots, out of some stupid idea that we were saving the lives of peoples' pets. We didn't really save any animal lives, since the Chinese slaughter dogs for food, and the hide business was just a sideline, but it made animal lovers feel better, and that is what's important, isn't it?

V/R
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Last edited by Shapley on Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GreatCarouser » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:34 pm

barfle wrote:As if there weren't real problems to deal with, the house just passed this piece of foolishness and intervention into people's lives.
:rant:


But serving them to 'Rover' is ok?
Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
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Postby shostakovich » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:06 pm

Or a person. I think cannibalism is an overlooked approach that will address the both the hunger and the overpopulation problems.
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Postby shostakovich » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:08 pm

Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:Stupid. Rule is, if you name it, it's your pet and you can't eat it. If you don't know its name, it's livestock.

Horses, like other herbivores, are fit for human consumption. I find the idea of eating horse meat personally distasteful, but I'd have no problem feeding it to my dog. There are vegetarians and vegans who find the idea of eating any meat distasteful - I have no intention from giving up my omnivore habits just because it grosses somebody else out. Why should horse be different from rabbit or turkey?


My comment was supposed to follow this one. OOPS!
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Postby barfle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:13 pm

Piq and Selma, actually California passed a similar law in either 2000 or 2001, I believe. It was worded to the effect of prohibiting the slaughter of horses for human consumption. It said nothing about dog food. I remember being asked to sign a petition for that bill, and I refused. I was amazed it actually made it on to the ballot, further amazed that the conservative Orange County Register endorsed it with a "Save the horses" road apple, and absolutely overwhelmed when I heard it passed.

While there are truly more pressing issues facing the country, this is yet one more indication of just how little respect your elected representatives have for your freedoms.

If you don't want to eat horse meat, don't eat horse meat. I certainly don't have any intention of making you do something you find objectionable. But passing a law making it illegal for others to do so is simply one more indication of how little the Constitution means today.
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:23 am

a "Save the Horses" road apple. How profoundly, delightfully appropriate!
>^..^<
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Postby piqaboo » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:57 am

Indeed.

Apparently its getting harder to find horsemeat at the butcher's in France.
Fewer stock it, and some people are so upset that they wont do business with a butcher who does. Persobally I'd like to try it, but since I cook so little meat, I hesitate to purchase and cook it myself, in case I bollix it up. Plus, I dont expect to be near a butcher that sells it soon, and its even less likely I'll have kitchen facilities when that opportunity does arrive.

Naming - Dolly had a name, so does Wilber(?) (Sum Pig!). Yum.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:09 pm

Can we still use horses for violin strings and glue?
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Postby Catmando » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:11 pm

Shapley wrote:Can we still use horses for violin strings and glue?


Or horse hairs for whips? uhhhmm...nevermind.
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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:38 pm

Actually... (I've been following this one since I am a member of the SPCA and read the newsletters.) The SPCA sponsored this bill and they mainly backed it because they consider the way these slaughterhouses kill the horse to be inhuman. They are calling for a complete ban while other groups are calling for a more humane way to "slaughter" the horse. This debate is similar to the ones that put rules place for the killing of cows and other regulations that the meat industry must now follow. The horsemeat industry has no real oversight or requirements in comparison.
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Postby piqaboo » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:58 pm

Ye Gods and little fishes....
we have separate laws governing the slaughter of each type of mammal?
Rather than one general law that covers em all?

And why does SPCA think slaughtering for dogfood will be more humane than regulating the slaughter for humanfood?
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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:10 pm

It's not about dog food vs. human food. It's about how these houses put the horse down. It's really a horrible, painful way they kill the horse. The rest of the meat industry has to follow rules on humane ways to kill animals. Horse slaughterhouses do not have these rules. Some reasons for rules include human consumption, your can't shoot an animal that may be eaten by humans, lead from the bullets for example... Other rules are for the humanity of the animal.

The SPCA has a laundry list on why they want it stopped including the painful way they kill horses. They are doing a good job of drumming up the emotion of the horse to sway people. But other groups are calling for a more humane way to kill the horse instead of a complete ban.

As a vegetarian I'd love to see an end to all meat consumption but I know that'll never happen. I do agree that this industry needs regulation. For too long it has not been governed and at a minimum they need to implement humane ways to kill a horse (if that can be considered humane) :?
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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:16 pm

FYI... Few dog food companies put horse meat in their product. They can't pay the high price.

This sight shows how they kill the horse. It's not for the faint of heart. "Horses are slaughtered by the use of the captive bolt, a four inch retractable nail. The horses are hit repeatedly in the forehead with the captive bolt which is supposed to render the horse unconscious. One hind leg is then shackled and the horse is lifted into the air upside down to have its throat cut and be bled out. Undercover investigations have shown that horses have been hoisted into the air while still conscious. The terrified horses can smell the blood, can hear the horses in front of them being killed and see other horses hanging in the air. Horses shake violently in the knockbox from fear and try desparately to avoid the captive bolt, scrambling and falling on the blood and urine soaked floor of the knockbox."

http://equineprotectionnetwork.com/slaughter/faq.htm

Actual video: http://www.sharkonline.org/horseslaughter.mv (I can't watch it.)
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:18 pm

It was my understanding that they have to be slaughtered in the same manner as any other animal used for food purposes. They also have to be inspected - which the slaughterhouses now have to pay for since the FDA doesn't provide them.

The bill doesn't stop the slaughter - it merely stops slaughter for human food. Instead they are slaughetered for dog food and for such things as soap, glue and violin strings. This slaughter is done under even less desirable conditions - as there are no FDA controls over slaughter for these purposes. There are no ranches in the United States that raise horses for food - it is too expensive an endeavor. however, the horsemeat has commercial value once the animals useful life is expended - as do their bones, hooves, and hair.

The living conditions for unwanted horses is nothing to crow about. If the horses have no commercial value there is little incentive to spend large sums on their upkeep. If their meat can be used for human consumption, there is at least the incentive to keep them healthy until slaughter - as the potential meat value extends their commercial life. The bill may do more of a disservice to the animals than a service.

V/R
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:28 pm

The Captive Bolt method is the same as is used for cattle. It is essentially the same as putting a bullet to the head, except that the bolt is attached to the gun and retracts after striking the animal. It is safer than a firearm since there is little danger of a projectile striking other workers or being retained in the meat.

The solution is to regulate the horse slaughterhouses in the same manner as any other. However, since the meat isn't consumed in the United States, it doesn't require USDA cerification, so the rules for certifaction don't apply. A simple problem to fix, by requiring that meat exported for human consumption require the same standards as meat for domestic enjoyment.

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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:45 pm

Shapley wrote:It was my understanding that they have to be slaughtered in the same manner as any other animal used for food purposes.


The USDA has the Farm Animal Well Being Task Force that regulates, teaches and monitors the way animals are slaughtered. They work with farms, vets and the industry to implement these rules. (When Bush came into office he dropped the Task Force and we have seen a slide by many farms and they are dropping the humane programs.) Here is an outline on many of the humane programs they started before the funding cut: http://ars.usda.gov/docs.htm?docid=1083&page=9

The article below is a great overview on the industry and how it has changed and developed. It highlights slaughter methods as well. Page 25 discusses how plants evolved to slaughter faster. They did this by developing methods to accommodate different animal shapes and sizes. Some plants can slaughter up to 1,000 hogs an hour. Of course it's about money and not the humanity of the animal.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fo ... aughter%22

The way I understand the Horse Bill is that if it's passed and ends all slaughter for human consumption, it effectively ends the majority of horse slaughter in this country. (Damn it if I can not find the article on the SPCA site now...) But I read an article that stated the other industries that use horse by-products (dog food etc) would only make up an extremely small percentage of the market. The hope is because it would be a smaller industy that they would follow humane treatment rules.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:15 pm

Nicole,

The Bureau of Land Management has slaughtered horses routinely for decades. They used ot just shoot them, but I think they changed those methods a while back. That is what the Missouri legistlation I mentioned earlier dealt with. They still slaughter animals that don't get adopted. They have neither the means nor the desire to care for them, and they do not want them roaming free. As I've said, the only thing the bill does is strip the horse owners of one market for the by-product of horse ownership - horse meat.

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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:40 pm

Right. Not arguing with you. We both are on the same page. The intent of the ban my be what we differ on. With the decrease of horse meat for consumption would mean XYZ for me, it means ABC for you.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:49 pm

I concur. This ain't worth goin' to war over.

I don't want horses to be killed inhumanely, but I really don't care what happens to the meat after they are killed. If, however, someone is going to eat it, I want it to be inspected, the same as any other. And I don't care if it's Americans, Frenchmen, or Fuegians that eat it, it should be inspected and guaranteed to be safe for consumption before it is allowed to be eaten.

Now, I'm sure OT is going to wonder why I'm willing to support goverment meat inspections but not government run health care, speaking of dead horses.... :D

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Postby piqaboo » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:58 pm

Nope. Im going to. :tee hee:

If the meat is for consumption here, lets pay for it to be inspected. If its for sale overseas, lets at least tax the snot out of it to cover the entire cost of those same inspections, OR lets let foreign inspectors do the job (purchasing countries paying their salaries.)

I dont know for sure the course of WNV in horses, but in humans it is at peak contagious levels in the week before the person gets symptoms. So,
they'd need to run a very expensive blood test to determine if an animal were positive. (horses are a secondary vector for WNV, a problem not shared by sheep, cows, pigs).

Probably cheaper to determine whether freezing will inactivate the virus in the horse flesh (unlikely), or at how high a cooking temp or time, etc.
HIV for example dies pretty fast even at room temp. HBV however has to be beaten with a very hot stick for a very long time. WNV, being a flavi-virus, probably inactivates very quickly with applied heat. I know not of its likely performance at -10F.

One could also track the Fed map of WNV outbreaks (in people, birds, horses) and then trace the source of one's meat and run on the probabilities. Or, only slaughter horses in the cold months of the year (no WNV, cause no mozzies).
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