30Q - # 37 Catmando

[Catmando]

Then I shall guess that it is Geistliches Wiegenlied (Sacred Lullaby), part of the 2 songs for alto, viola, and piano, Opus 91.

Yup, you got it Shap! Congratulations

And yes *ig, it does mention Mary, the mother of Jesus.

[Shapley]

I noticed that it was in your library list, once you bumped it back to the top. I've not heard the piece before - I didn't used to be a fan of Brahms, although I have a collection of his symphonies on vinyl collecting dust somwhere in the basement. My tastes have changed somewhat over the past several years, perhaps I should give his music another try.

[Catmando]

I noticed that it was in your library list, once you bumped it back to the top. I've not heard the piece before - I didn't used to be a fan of Brahms, although I have a collection of his symphonies on vinyl collecting dust somwhere in the basement. My tastes have changed somewhat over the past several years, perhaps I should give his music another try.

I would say he is my 2nd favorite composer overall. His symphonies and concertos are all of a very high quality, IMHO.

[bignaf]

whoever doesn't like Brahms is objectively taste-deficient.

[Catmando]

It is often said that after Beethoven, the two major directional branch offs were Brahms and Wagner. Brahms being the ultra conservative, don't stray away from the classical style to the radical style of Wagner.

Is this somewhat accurate?

[bignaf]

are you asking if the fact that it said often is accurate? if so, yes.
if you're asking whether Brahms was ultra-conservative, the answer is no. he strayed far from classical, but in different ways than Wagner. Wagner and his followers felt that being radical had to involve rejection of absolute (not dramartic/programatic music). that ended up being a temporary fad, since the 20th century showed a massive resurjence of absolute music.
Wagner did move between keys much more quickly than Brahms, and spiced it up with a little more chromaticism. but Brahms had his own harmonic language which was progressive in its own way.

[Catmando]

are you asking if the fact that it said often is accurate? if so, yes.
if you're asking whether Brahms was ultra-conservative, the answer is no. he strayed far from classical, but in different ways than Wagner. Wagner and his followers felt that being radical had to involve rejection of absolute (not dramartic/programatic music). that ended up being a temporary fad, since the 20th century showed a massive resurjence of absolute music.
Wagner did move between keys much more quickly than Brahms, and spiced it up with a little more chromaticism. but Brahms had his own harmonic language which was progressive in its own way.

Yes, I was curious if the fact that is said often is accurate. Thanks for the explanation. I definitely need to brush up on musical terms.

[bignaf]

some of the weird words are just typos...

[Catmando]

Mr. Shapley, are you going to do a 30Q soon?

[Shapley]

All in good time, my friend....

[shostakovich]

It is often said that after Beethoven, the two major directional branch offs were Brahms and Wagner. Brahms being the ultra conservative, don't stray away from the classical style to the radical style of Wagner.

Is this somewhat accurate?

I have to disagree with Big on this one. Brahms was conservative, inventing nothing new. He was satisfied with the legacy of Bach and Beethoven. Wagner's influence extends to this very day in movies. The leitmotif is alive and well. The shark motive in Jaws is a prime example.

The 20th century did have a resurgence of classical forms (neo-classicism --- Piston, Poulenc, Stravinsky after Rite) and romantic ideas (post romanticism --- Hanson, Khachaturian, Puccini). It also had much experimentation (primitive, twelve tone, aleatoric, electronic). Partch even invented his own scale.

But, getting back to your question, if we restrict ourselves to the 19th C, Brahms was the principal representative of conservatism. Wagner was considered the most progressive.

By the way, I once read an evaluation of Wagner that was remarkable. "He was a greater influence in his field than any other person in any other field." I'm not pushing or refuting that assessment. I'm just stunned by the gravity of it.
Shos

[Catmando]

By the way, I once read an evaluation of Wagner that was remarkable. "He was a greater influence in his field than any other person in any other field." I'm not pushing or refuting that assessment. I'm just stunned by the gravity of it.
Shos

That is quite an evaluation!

[bignaf]

As I said it often said that brahms was a conservative, and Shos is following that path.
shos,
(firstly, I you won't take offence to some of my extreme rhetorical devices... )
does Brahms sound like Bach or Beethoven? if you answer yes, you have a problem. if you answer no, why? I know why, and it's because he's progressive in his way.
regarding Wagner's influence, you haven't proven it aside for leitmotiv. Wagner did not invent the leitmotif, it has been used before him for important themes, characters. see Commendatore in Don Giovanni, see Papageno in Magic Flute, see the Devil in Die Freischutz, etc. movie music has no choice but employ "leitmotifs." in fact those "leitmotifs" often reccur with no dramatic signifigance, just because the composer can't write a different for every minute.
your undertanding of my distinction between Wagner and Brahms is supeficial and is limited to the cliches "classical" and "romantic." what's the difference between them? what makes neo-classicism "classical"? what makes Brahms "classical"? dies he sound like Haydn? does he souns like Stravinsky?
my distinction is with Wagner, R. Strauus, Wolff, et al.'s cries of "music of the future! it will no longer be music written with the minds of composers and listeners alike empty, but rather they'll have explicit program, dramas with it. and there will be no more symphonies!" Wagner took it further: the oinly art of the future will be the unified art form. no more music by itself, no more drama by itself, no more visual arts by themselves. they'll all serve the uinfied-art-form.
obviously they were wrong. was this mindset influential with the great composers of the next generation? no. 20th century music went quickly towards the abstract. what you call experimentation is almost all influenced by Brahms. Primitivism belongs in the post romantic. twelve tone is classical in it rigor, Schoenberg wrote the essay "Brahms the Progressive" and declared Brahms to be his major influence. a;eatoric is a characteristic that can work in any music. electronic is usually clasically rigourous.
in your 3rd paragraph you use the word "considered" which points to what I said.
late 19th century and early 20th century were characterized by Wagner-mania among the public and commentators, many overblown statements were issued at the time.

[shostakovich]

OK, Big. You can have the last word. I'll still stick to my next-to-last words.
Shos

[bignaf]

last word.