It can't happen here?

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It can't happen here?

Postby GreatCarouser » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:12 pm

This is the first I've heard about this movie/phenomenon. Anyone seen it?
Jesus Camp
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:37 pm

I haven't seen the film. I think the portrayal in the article is a bit left-of-center, though, since it refers to youth 'worshiping a picture of President Bush', that would mean they are worshiping a false god, which is contrary to Christianity and , if true, means the group isn't truly Christian.

The author also says that increasing numbers of evangelical youths is bad for the country because they are inflexible on issues such as abortion and gay marriage. Is it automatically to be presumed that being flexible on those issues is good for the country?

I don't think the article is unbiased enough to draw a decent conclusion about the 'movement'. Perhaps the movie would provide greater insight, but I'm simply not concerned about it.

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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:14 pm

I saw a 15 min segment of the film on one of the film channels on cable. They played it with no editing or commentary. Talk about scary! The 15 min showed kids who attend the camp. They were saying they do not trust any one who is not a christian and would not trust anyone who was dark in skin color and "looks" like a Muslim. One kid said that if anyone does not believe in God (his version of God) that he would not trust them and basically damned and he's prey for their soul. It was all very neo-Nazi. At first I could not believe what these kids were saying. Pure hate. Reminded me of the brainwashing Al Qaeda does to young boys...
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Postby Nicole Marie » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:19 pm

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Postby GreatCarouser » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:22 pm

Shapley wrote:...The author also says that increasing numbers of evangelical youths is bad for the country because they are inflexible on issues such as abortion and gay marriage. Is it automatically to be presumed that being flexible on those issues is good for the country? ...


The author doesn't make that statement, Shap. He is quoting Lauren Sandler, who he describes as " a secular, liberal feminist from New York City who spent months among the believers researching her new book, "Righteous." He also quotes others who have political views that are divergent from Sandler's. Hers is hardly the dominant viewpoint of the article. I can't comment on the 'worshipping a photo of GWB' because I haven't seen the film yet.
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Postby barfle » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:56 pm

Shapley wrote:The author also says that increasing numbers of evangelical youths is bad for the country because they are inflexible on issues such as abortion and gay marriage. Is it automatically to be presumed that being flexible on those issues is good for the country?


It seems to me that being inflexible on matters of personal choices of others is bad for the country. Sort of like being inflexible regarding others' consumption of horse meat.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:59 pm

Here we go down this road again.

People as individuals have the right, nay, the responsibility to be inflexible on matters of importance to them. If a person believes in the very depths of his soul that legalizing homosexual unions will have a grievous impact on the direction of our nation, then I expect them to be inflexible on that issue. When they engage in debate, it is incumbent upon each side to explain the correctness of their viewpoint. If one side convinces the other, then we gain a unanimity of opinion. If one side weakens the resolve of the other, or both sides weaken a little, we have a compromise. If neither side weakens, then we have an impasse or, in extreme cases, a war. Contrary to popular belief, some things are worth going to war over. Some times an impasse is a good thing. In those cases inflexibility is good. But who am I, or you, or Lauren Sandler to say when a person has to be flexible and when not? I say that is a matter only we can decide for ourselves.

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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:27 pm

BTW,

What, exactly, is it that 'can't happen here'? Are we arguing that a handful of "Jesus Camps" may be more dangerous than the efforts that may be employed to stop them? Is it the fact that they are religious extremists that makes them somehow different than other youth camps that seek to indoctrinate kids into evironmental extremism, multicultural extremism, or pick-your-favourite-extremism? If you look at the beginnings of the Boy and Girl Scouts, you will find that they, too, were founded on rather extreme principles. But time and tide have smoothed the edges and made them them into mainstream groups - too liberal for some, too conservative for others, but certainly mellower than in the days of Baden-Powell.

The "Jesus Camps", too, will mellow and join the mainstream, or they will fall to the wayside of history, with not so much as a stone to mark the place they once stood.

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Postby OperaTenor » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:42 pm

In this case, inflexible = intolerant.
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Postby GreatCarouser » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:40 pm

The thread's title is taken from an old Frank Zappa song:
Lyrics

They deal with (among other things) fear and threats to the status quo. I viewed the trailer HRH links. The next video was an edited version that states there is no difference between the kids in this camp and the Muslim youth I've referred to in some of my recent posts. I find it sensational but I think we need to be aware of the possibilities.

Last week I was teaching in an elementary school. One of my students asked me after school if I were "a Christian". I don't answer these questions at school on general principles and deflected her in some fashion but I have to tell you whenever I'm asked what my faith is by a stranger I get nervous and feel I'm being 'interrogated' and in some way violated. I find myself disturbed at thoughts about a world where that criteria (one's faith or lack of it) is 'a' or 'the' primary factor in one's right to exist or partake in the fruits of this world. It seems to me that is exactly the direction this world is headed and I find that unfortunate.
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Postby Serenity » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:26 pm

AMEN! :wink:
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Postby Shapley » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:07 am

GC,

I've been asked that question often enough, but I dont' see it as an issue. I suppose that's the difference between growing up in the Midwest versus growing up elsewhere.

When I was in the Navy, I was once asked whether or not I was a Christian. I answered that I was, so the next question, typically, was 'what religion?' I told him I was a Catholic. He responded that I can't be a Catholic and a Christian. I was shocked, so I asked him why. He proceeded to tell me that Catholics aren't Christians, they even have a different Bible. We then had a lengthy discussion on the King James vs. the Catholic Bible, but I don't think I successfully convinced him that Catholics are Christians. The chow line started moving before we finished the conversation.

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Postby bignaf » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:22 am

hehe, that's funny.
if the catholic bible is indeed different than king James, he was the one who wasn't christian.
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Postby barfle » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:09 am

Shapley wrote:Here we go down this road again.

People as individuals have the right, nay, the responsibility to be inflexible on matters of importance to them. If a person believes in the very depths of his soul that legalizing homosexual unions will have a grievous impact on the direction of our nation, then I expect them to be inflexible on that issue.

And I am inflexible on the issue of people saying it's their right to tell other consenting adults what to do. It's that "liberty" thingy.
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Postby barfle » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:15 am

Shapley wrote:When I was in the Navy, I was once asked whether or not I was a Christian. I answered that I was, so the next question, typically, was 'what religion?' I told him I was a Catholic. He responded that I can't be a Catholic and a Christian. I was shocked, so I asked him why. He proceeded to tell me that Catholics aren't Christians, they even have a different Bible. We then had a lengthy discussion on the King James vs. the Catholic Bible, but I don't think I successfully convinced him that Catholics are Christians.


This is simply one more example of how many faiths teach intolerance of other people's views. As a recovering Catholic, I went through all the teachings that show Catholicism to be the original Christian faith, and all the protestant religions that I'm aware of have thier roots in Catholicism.

The term "Protestant" is a description of the fact that those faiths protested certain elements of Catholicism.

I'm regularly amused when people debate about how "Christian" they are.

I have a joke hidden deep in my archives that has two men meeting on a bridge, they discover that they are both Christians, both Baptists, both southern convention, both something else, but differ on some minor element, so one throws the other off the bridge with the comment of "Godless heathen."
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Postby Shapley » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:00 am

I don't think it's so much intolerance as ignorance. So many people are kept in their own little world and not taught the similarities and differences between their religions and others in the world. I am thankful that my Catholic school education taught us about other religions (not entirely correctly, BTW) in a non-judgmental fashion. We learned a bit about the history of the Arab nations, the Jewish peoples, the Protestants, and even touched very briefly on Eastern religions (briefly because they do not tie into the history of Catholicism, except as regards the work of the missions).

Regardless of the manner of teaching, some will be intolerant of others with divergent views, just as some of those who have visited here are intolerant of those who support President Bush and his policies. I'm not sure this type of intolerance is so much a result of teachings as a basic character flaw stemming from an unwillingness to accept the possible valididty of views contrary to ones' own.

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Postby FlyingSorcery » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:34 am

Shapley wrote:I don't think it's so much intolerance as ignorance. So many people are kept in their own little world and not taught the similarities and differences between their religions and others in the world.


That is the proverbial "hitting the nail on the head". Tolerance involves understanding; and understanding involves knowledge. And knowledge often involves a certain humble acceptance that your beliefs are still personally valid, even if someone else believes differently.

While my family is firm in our beliefs, we have enjoed learning about other faiths. We have attended other worship services and we always made sure never to criticize or puff ourselves up because of differences. Even at school the kids have learned when it is appropriate to correct someone's "facts" about a religion and when just to let it go. Argument never converted anyone.
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Postby Shapley » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:37 am

Argument never converted anyone.


No, but it is fun... :D
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Postby FlyingSorcery » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:49 am

Shapley wrote:
Argument never converted anyone.


No, but it is fun... :D


Oh defintely! Especially with someone who is blindly of one opinion! :rofl:
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Postby BigJon » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:40 pm

Shapley wrote: Regardless of the manner of teaching, some will be intolerant of others with divergent views, just as some of those who have visited here are intolerant of those who support President Bush and his policies.

Who was IowaNiceGuy on this board? Avivaldi72? Sounds like his style.
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