30Q #38 - Shapely

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Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:24 pm

Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth)?

Yes, that's the one.

Nav,

It is called (The Song of the Earth) although it is actually a collection of songs.

I was hoping someone would ask the "Is it a symphony" question, so I could answer 'yes and no' again. :)

back in the '70s and '80s, Das Lied von der Erde was included in collections of Mahler's Symphonies, and frequently listed as Symphony #10. Now, most collections include either the complete 1st movement of Symphony #10, or the entire Symphony #10 as orchstrated by Cooke in 1960. They will usually still include Das Lied, but it has been demoted from symphony status, hence the 'yes and no' answer. :)

I think there is a bit more detail on the history of this back on the 'Mahler thread, or one of the threads that discusses his music.

V/R
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Postby navneeth » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:36 pm

Now that I look at the list again, there are lot more lieds than I thought - all of them hiding in those german titles. :x Also, I checked the list of symphonies and guess what? Das Lied is right there on top. But then comes the list of symphonies with #10 being "incomplete."
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Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:40 pm

It's a beautiful work. If you get the chance, you should give it a listen. Perhaps we can persuade Beethoven.com to work into the weekend schedule. (It's over an hour long, so it probably won't fit into the daytime schedule - could make the overnight playlist, though.

I feel another request coming up...
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Postby navneeth » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:49 pm

Shapley wrote:It's a beautiful work. If you get the chance, you should give it a listen. Perhaps we can persuade Beethoven.com to work into the weekend schedule. (It's over an hour long, so it probably won't fit into the daytime schedule - could make the overnight playlist, though.

I feel another request coming up...

Hmmm...over an hour long? No wonder it was considered a symphony. Maybe a German/Austrian/Bohemain Weekened? That'd be amazing. My request didn't make into today's 4 o' clock feature, though...I must've been late.
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Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:04 pm

If it's a piece that they don't play too often, it sometimes takes a while to dig it out of the archives.

I'm not sure how their CD collection is catalogued. I'm sure the common pieces are easy to find, but the less-played pieces probably get shuffled into a musty corner of the basement. :)

I've had some of my requests seemingly disappear for hours or even a day or two, only to get played sometime later, when I'm least expecting it. They'll still list is 'requested by Shapley' (or sometimes 'Shapely'), so I know it's mine.

V/R
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Postby FlyingSorcery » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:15 pm

Very cool that Das Lied von der Erde was the answer. I can only pull two Mahler pieces out of my brain and that happened to be one of them.

I hope I am on when/if the piece gets played. Or maybe I'll just use it as an excuse to make a trip to the local Borders store!
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Postby bignaf » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:27 pm

nice one. we really came at this from the wrong angle.
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Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:47 pm

They pulled it out in the end.

Of course, it helps that Mahler doesn't have that large a list of works to choose from...
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Postby FlyingSorcery » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:52 pm

That just makes each one of his works that much more special. :D
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Postby Catmando » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:54 pm

FlyingSorcery,

You can ask as many questions as you want in the 30Q (all 30 if you wish :D ), however you normally only get 1 crack at a guess.

You had two guesses. However, I'm glad you got it, and now you hold the weighty responsibility with coming up with the 30Q # 39. :twisted:
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Postby Catmando » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:56 pm

Good one Shap, finally nice to see Mahler make it in the 30Q list.

"Das Lied von der Erde" was actually my 1st hunch (should have trusted my 1st instinct), but I went with Symp# 8 as a guess, since I thought for sure you would give a tribute to pair numbered symphonies.

You did not, and now I am really disappointed in you! :evil:

Just kidding. :rofl:
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Postby FlyingSorcery » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:09 pm

Catmando wrote:.......now you hold the weighty responsibility with coming up with the 30Q # 39. :twisted:


Oh dear. What a weighty responsibility. Hmmm. I may need to think this one over tonight. :pray:

Does the next 30Q need to start on a certain day, or just whenever I've come up with something?
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Postby Catmando » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:16 pm

30Q can start on any day, at any time.

Take your time. We'll be waiting and we'll let you know when we become impatient and tired of waiting. :rofl:
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Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:38 am

"Das Lied von der Erde" was actually my 1st hunch (should have trusted my 1st instinct), but I went with Symp# 8 as a guess, since I thought for sure you would give a tribute to pair numbered symphonies.


I was going to go with Symphony #2, but I thought that would be too obvious, since I've identified it as my favourite numerous times here, so I thought I'd pick something else. I was listening to my Mahler EMI box set last week and had thought about Das Lied, conspicuously absent from the set, and decided that would be a good one.

As I've pointed out, my vinyl Mahler Symphonies Box set includes Das Lied as Symphony #10. I don't have a recording of it on CD, yet.

V/R
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Postby bignaf » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:02 am

Mahler called it DLVDE what gives them a right to call it Symphony no. 10? in fact there isa symphony number 10, incomplete, completed by two different guys. this is just confusing. the composer knows what he's doing, trust him a little, and use his name for the piece.
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Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:15 am

Supposedly, he wrote Das Lied and put it aside before writing Symphony No. 9, in hopes of beating the 'curse of the ninth'. He then started symphony #10, which he never completed. Cooke finished it in 1960 or 1964, depending on which account you read, and it wasn't regularly included in Mahler sets until then.

I suppose there was some confusion regarding #10, since Mahler had spoken of it, but it's existence wasn't known, whereas Das Lied was known. It is definitely symphonic, even if he didn't refer to as a symphony.

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Postby bignaf » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:23 am

none of that justifieis calling it symphony number 10, right?
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Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:03 am

No, but I don't compile the collections, I just buy them. :D I pointed out earleir that many collections offered in the '70s and '80s, and I presume earlier although I don't recall seeing any of them, identified Das Lied as symphony #10. Here's what the non-definitive Wikipedia has to say about it:

Curse of the ninth
Mahler was obsessed by Beethoven's legacy; he declared that all of his symphonies were "ninths", having the same impact and scale as Beethoven's famous Choral symphony. Mahler was also apparently a firm believer in the curse of the ninth and thus terrified of writing a ninth numbered symphony. This is held to be the reason why he did not give a number to the symphonic work - Das Lied von der Erde - which followed his Eighth, but instead described it merely as Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte") (A symphony for one tenor and one alto (or baritone) voice and orchestra, after Hans Bethge's "The Chinese Flute"). The work can be considered a combination of song cycle and symphony. As it happened, Mahler did in fact die after writing his ninth numbered symphony, leaving his tenth unfinished. There have been several attempts to complete the work (or produce 'performing versions' of the draft) since the 1940s.


Some compilations also refer to Symphony #7 as the Song of the Night, although Mahler did not use that name himself. I suppose there is a precedent for doing that sort of thing, but it's not my area of expertise.

I suppose it could be argued that, since he died two years after Das Lied was completed, he simply never got around to numbering it. :roll:

Did he actually assign the number 10 to the tenth symphony fragment, or was that designation assigned by others? The Wikipedia entry would indicate that he did not do so - perhaps he would have called it the eleventh.

V/R
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Postby shostakovich » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:21 pm

How about this theory? Mahler's "Symphony #8" is not really a symphony. DLVDE is also not a symphony. So when he wrote the so-called 9th, it was really the 8th. That's how he tried to fake out fate. But fate outfoxed him. He called the 9th "10th", and he never finished. So, there is only one major composer (that I can think of) after Beethoven who managed to finish a 9th. WHO WAS IT?

Note, Dvorak's New World was the 5th at the time of his death. The first 4 were only published after he died. Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony, so-called #1, is not really a symphony for the same reason Mahler's "8th" isn't. So VW did not finish a 9th. Fate got a bit testy over the ploy, and got VW just before the premiere recording of the "9th", actually his 8th, making absolutely certain there would be no 9th.

So who, after Beethoven, finished a "9th"? Fate doesn't bother with minor leaguers, so we shouldn't either.
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Postby Catmando » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:48 pm

shostakovich wrote:How about this theory? Mahler's "Symphony #8" is not really a symphony. DLVDE is also not a symphony. So when he wrote the so-called 9th, it was really the 8th. That's how he tried to fake out fate. But fate outfoxed him. He called the 9th "10th", and he never finished. So, there is only one major composer (that I can think of) after Beethoven who managed to finish a 9th. WHO WAS IT?

Note, Dvorak's New World was the 5th at the time of his death. The first 4 were only published after he died. Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony, so-called #1, is not really a symphony for the same reason Mahler's "8th" isn't. So VW did not finish a 9th. Fate got a bit testy over the ploy, and got VW just before the premiere recording of the "9th", actually his 8th, making absolutely certain there would be no 9th.

So who, after Beethoven, finished a "9th"? Fate doesn't bother with minor leaguers, so we shouldn't either.
Shos


Why, it was you Shostakovich, of course! :)
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