Gas Price Outrage!

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Postby OperaTenor » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:54 pm

piqaboo wrote:OT, can you provide a link to the source of that more current projections graph? I'm in a graphing frame of mind and want to track down that elusive cyan-ical band.


This is the site that produced the graph. It appears they have even futher updated graphs and analyses of the situation. I find this particularly interesting, not just because it supports my contention:

A Commentary on Peak Oil

There's been alotta talk in the media about Peak Oil, with insinuations that the recent $70/barrel prices were indicative of long term supply concerns. On the contrary, extraction of "all liquid oils" hit a global production record of 84.7-mbd in December 2005. It is hoped that our Depletion Scenarios assist in putting the Peak Oil issue in perspective. As shown in our graphs above, present levels of crude extraction are forecast for some time albeit at reduced volumes post peak, but there will be lotsa oil availability well into the next century. The models estimate an average 1.989 Trillion barrels of oil is economically recoverable.


It goes on and on to support those assertions, but that's the central point.

PS. The cyan OPEC projection line is clearly represented in the updated graphs.
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Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:45 pm

I don't like Greg Palast, or the Peak Oil theory.

The chart 'Non-Opec, Non-FSU Oil Production purports to show that oil production has peaked and is declining. However, by it's title, Non-OPEC, Non-FSU Oil Production, shows the flaw in the theory. Both OPEC and FSU oil production are up, FSU up significantly. Given that Oil consumption rises at a relatively steady rate, it would be expected that oil production would rise at the same rate. If it rises faster than the rate of consumption, surpluses develop and the price drops. If it rises slower, shortages exist, and the price rises. The price has risen, but shortages have not developed - so what gives?

Former Soviet Union oil production is rising, but neither consumption nor surplus stocks have skyrocketed, which can only mean one thing - the FSU oil production is taking market share from somewhere else. OPEC production is up - so they aren't taking their shares, and that leaves everyone else (Non-OPEC, Non-FSU oil producers). As the lose market share, they cut back production to avoid accumulating a surplus. That's free trade at work, BTW.
____________________________________

I did a little Googling to find out about Greg Palast. His name comes up again and again in reference to his claim that Al Gore won in 2000, that Kerry won in 2004, and that the Republicans have the grand-conspiracy network in place to ensure victory in 2008, the 'smoking-gun' memo, as well as his grand conspiracy theory regarding Geroge Bush, elections, oil, deficits, Wal-Mart and Swiss Gnomes (well, okay, not Wal-Mart or the Swiss Gnomes, but the rest of it).

I read an interview with him, seems like every left-wing blog out there has had an 'exclusive' interview with him on his theories. In it, he claims that President Bush 'stole' the election in 2004 by disinfranchising 3.6 million voters, mostly poor and minorities. He arrives at this figure by looking at the statistics on the number of spoiled ballots in various precincts and notes that they are higher in poor and minority neighborhoods. I noted that he made no effort to go back and check those statistics against the trend in elections in which Democrats won. His claim is that you are more likely to have your vote invalidated if you are poor or a minority based on statistical evidence.

What he doesn't point out is that you are more likely to have your vote invalidated if you are poorly educated, which is more likely if you are poor or a member of a minority. I've sat in the Clerk's office and watched the vote being counted in Cairo, Illinois and in New Madrid, Missouri. The poor and minority districts are more likely to have undervotes, where voters failed to punch the card properly, or failed to punch it at all. There are more voters who are likely to vote only for the candidate or issues they care about, and thus leave some races unpunched, and they are more likely to put the card in backwards, upside down, or whatever other result may come from failing to properly read the instructions. Voter assistance is usually standing by, but I am told it is rarely asked for. To avoid this, candidates use (and abuse) the absentee ballot, going into the homes of poor and minority voters and 'helping' them fill out the ballot, usually by filling it out for them. Election judges pay particular attention to these ballots, particularly when the percentage of absentee ballots is much greater than historic norms, or when there are a large number of absentee ballots from unregistered voters, or voters who do not traditionally vote, or are dead or moved out of the precinct (not a joke).

There are also likely to be a larger number of overvotes - races in which ballots are cast more than once. In Florida in 2000, one of the most common overvotes reported was the instance of voters punching the candidates number, and then also punching the 'write in' block, and writing in the candidates name, presumably hoping that it will count as two votes for the candidate. This spoils the vote, and can be construed as an attempt at vote fraud. Since this seemed to happen more often in votes cast for Al Gore than for President Bush, Democrat recounters wanted to count them, the Republicans, supported by the law (and by common sense, IMHO) refused to accept this.

What I gather from reading about Greg Palast, he is very good at misreporting statistics to support his absurd claims. In order for the grand conspiracy of Republican election fraud to take place, they would have to have co-conspirators in every election precinct in every State - all trained in the art of disenfranchising voters. I can tell you from experience, it's hard to find even one Repbulican willing to work the polls in the poor and minority districts, let alone enough to pull of such a grand conspiracy.

Greg Palast is a kook. There's no way around it. He is living proof of Benjamin Franklin's claim that An educated fool writes his nonsense in better language, but it is still nonsense.

V/R
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Last edited by Shapley on Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:55 pm

PS. The cyan OPEC projection line is clearly represented in the updated graphs.


Yes, I noticed that. I also noticed that your original link to the graph was through Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... s41211.png

I wonder if the editors at Wikipedia removed the line, and why. I can't see that it adds or detracts from the information provided.

I'm looking for the Wikipedia/Wal-Mart/Big Oil/Swiss Gnomes connection here - I'm sure after a couple of beers I'll find it. :D

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Postby OperaTenor » Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:02 am

I got the impression the graph from Wiki is old, possibly outdated, seemingly, compared to the graphs on Trendlines.

As for you opinion of Greg Palast, I would expect nothing less from someone who believes Faux News preaches gospel.
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Postby theprotectors » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:14 am

OperaTenor wrote:I got the impression the graph from Wiki is old, possibly outdated, seemingly, compared to the graphs on Trendlines.

As for you opinion of Greg Palast, I would expect nothing less from someone who believes Faux News preaches gospel.


Hm???
Am I confused you bet I dont even know if I amgoing to agree or diagree.
but you have a good day. :deal:
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Postby Shapley » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:15 am

As for you opinion of Greg Palast, I would expect nothing less from someone who believes Faux News preaches gospel.


I've never made that claim. I do think they are no more nor less accurate than any other media source. Reuters with it's doctored photos and CBS 'fake but accurate' reporting, as well as the Times' Jayson Blair all come to mind immediately.
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Postby Shapley » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:17 am

Hello, theprotectors,

Welcome back from your long absense!

V/R
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Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:48 am

I was unaware that Citgo is wholly owned by Venezuela's state-owned oil company.

After Hugo Chavez’s rant against the president at the UN this week I think I might rethink where I’ll buy gas from now on.

I’m not big on boycotts and have only ever participate in one, French wine (still ongoing) however, in this case I might make another exception and avoid Citgo it the future.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:57 am

$2.14 all over Plano, TX
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:17 pm

$1.99 all over Cape Girardeau, even lower at the "Cash Only" facilites.
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Postby OperaTenor » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:45 pm

Accomplishing the mission:

Image
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Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:53 pm

pipeline deterioation? prices dropped the day after it was annouced here
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Postby OperaTenor » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:47 pm

Now they're practically paying me to take the gas - down to $2.78 for regular unleaded last time I filled up at Costco!
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Postby piqaboo » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:10 pm

BenODen wrote:
piqaboo wrote:Can we compare to 05, 04, 03 etc pls?

Ok, I found a source of historic gasoline prices here:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleu ... story.html
and I snipped out mid grade prices by year for Feb, may, aug, sep and oct.

Best I can see, there's mostly a summer bump, that doesn't go back down in the fall most years. YOu can see the effects of Y2K (mabye), 9/11, the Iraq war, and Katrina.. Then you have this big huge spike this year which started early and is now easing to some extent after summer... Prudoh bay is late summer, as is The Lebanon-Israel war.. I can't remember any particular incident that tipped things over the edge this year... Oil price history would be the next step.

Year Feb May Aug Sep Oct
1995 117.8 130 123.6 122.1 117.9
1996 118.1 134.8 128.2 127.8 129.5
1997 132.5 127.6 132 131.2 127.4
1998 113 112.4 108.6 107.4 109.1
1999 99.7 117.1 128.7 132.5 132.8
2000 148 158.5 157 161.4 159.3
2001 152.2 171.5 147 150.9 129.2
2002 118.7 145.4 145.8 146.1 151.9
2003 171.3 152.7 177.7 175.2 163
2004 174.6 212.5 195.1 194.3 210.6
2005 198.7 218.7 269.1 295.4 260.7
2006 233.4 295 297 263.7



and the first time it was that high...... middle last year.
Yup, wayyyyyyyy down (not). :rant:
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Postby Shapley » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:47 pm

If you go to this site and create the 3-year chart, you will see that Indiana gasoline prices saw a similarly dramatic plunge from the August Peak to the September level.

This didn't happen in 2004, but there wasn't an August peak to come down from, in fact August prices were at their lowest of the summer, having fallen from July levels. They peaked again in October, falling in November. Again not so dramatically, but the peaks weren't really that high to begin with.

Winter-blend gasoline is cheaper to produce and cheaper at the pump than summer blend, and this helps lower costs. Also, the winter-blend inventory levels affect pricing, as well as the drop in sales following summer travel periods.

V/R
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Postby BigJon » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:30 am

OperaTenor wrote:Accomplishing the mission:

Image

OT, don't you get tired? Tired of banging your head against the wall with the same lack of facts, illogic and conspiracy theories? Give up! Take a rest. Go find a good, college-level book on economics, both macro and micro, and study it until you can recite the contents backwards and forwards. Go chase Altoid around the yard and Piq around the sofa. Have fun. Develop a new hobby. Give Serenity a call and sing to her. She seems a little down right now. Something from a light comic opera might be appropriate.
Even a blind nut finds a squirrel once in a while. – Me! Feb 9, 2001
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Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:49 am

BJ, don't you get tired of being condescending and caustic?

You can take your anyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-you-is-either-stupid-or-a-nut attitude and stuff it. I'm really tired of hearing it.
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Postby Nicole Marie » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:18 am

BigJon-

I am giving you a warning. We do have rules on the BBB, please remind yourself of them.

Often these discussions become heated and folks can get tangled up in their opinion. We all do not agree with each other... nor should we. It's nice to have a variety of views on the board but there is no need for the type of post you left.

Shap, Haggis, OT, Shos etc all do a wonderful job of keeping the discussions serious yet fun. Try to keep their example in mind.
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Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:40 am

Right. I post here becuase it's fun. If I want serious I'll just focus on work...
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Postby piqaboo » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 pm

Yup, poking Shap and bigJon with sharpsticks :poke: is one of my favorite hobbies. I used to enjoy tweaking HRH a bit too, but Nicole, you are just not as reactive as you used to be so the fun has gone out of it. :razz:

Not that I like a good squabble or anything...... :owned:
Altoid - curiously strong.
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