Gas Price Outrage!

[piqaboo]

$2.09 in Plano yesterday

Wish I could afford the commute to Plano.

Even so, $2.09 is still up. This is where OT contends we get fooled.
They raise it sooo high we dont notice that it doesnt come all the way back down. Im thinking he's got a point there.
Its only been the last couple years that us SandyEggans have paid >$2/gal, and we've got nearly the highest prices in the nation.

(Speaking of commuting.......I used to love to fill up at the bottom of Mt San Jacinto. Unlike most tourist places, the gas there was so much cheaper than the gas at home that I'd try to arrive running on fumes. Owner retired some years ago, station closed. :boo hooo:)

[Giant Communist Robot]

Costco in Waipio, Hawaii: $ 2.67

Shell in Aiea, Hawaii: $2.99

I think its hovering aroung $3.50 on the smaller islands. Our oil comes from Indonesia, and we have two refineries here.

We experienced mixed results with a price cap on gasoline. The formula was the average of three markets; New York, Los Angeles, and the Gulf area. The cap went into effect right after Katrina and artifically raised our prices considerably. Once or twice it lowered prices for a while. A dismal experiment. Prices should be set by the market.

[Trumpetmaster]

I saw gas for $2.29 here on Long Island this week....
Keeps going down... so fast..... That's a good thing......

I heard a report that it's going down fast
because the Republicans are manipulating it right before the elections....

[OperaTenor]

What we have to remember is that the Republicans aren't manipulating gas prices - they can't. IOC's and OPEC are doing the manipulating, and it could be for the benefit of their "investment", the Republicans, generally speaking(I doubt the Dems are squeaky clean on this, either).

The party currently in control of EVERYTHING has benefitted the world's largest industry. That industry wants to keep the status quo as much as possible, and is doing its part to ensure there won't be any upsets in the coming elections that might rock the boat.

That we actually fall for it amazes me to no end.

[BenODen]

If you go to this site and create the 3-year chart, you will see that Indiana gasoline prices saw a similarly dramatic plunge from the August Peak to the September level.

... Something's a bit squirrly, but gasoline certainly wasn't more expensive than the oil contribution and now isn't cheaper, so I'll give up any claims to a gasoline only pricing issue. ... [/list]

Ok, so I gave up too early on my misgivings about the gasoline prices. There definitly is something fishy going on: The gasoline price increase percentage increases have recently exactly tracked the oil price increases in excess of oil's contribution to gasoline production costs, even in low demand periods. The increase in oil prices between the low this February and the high in late July is about 50%. The gasoline price increase was about 50%. This is suspicious. Even Exxon says that only 50% of the cost of producing gasoline is dictated by oil prices. This should mean that during the lower demand times of year, it should only have 50% of the percent increase in price that oil does, yet somehow it seems to be tracking the oil prices very well... Yet why have they passed price fixing investigations with flying colors? I'm with OT that the government probably isn't directly effecting gasoline or oil prices. On the other hand maybe the government is indirectly involved by not doing a thorough review of price fixing when it says it is, that would be easy to do... I admit that the political linkage to profiteering are limited, but Republicans aren't prone to spend much money on non-market driven alternate energy research, so maybe this way the oil companies can make more than their share money, yet make it look like it's just oil and it just happens that the oil prices fall in time to amplify the falling oil prices which helps look like not so much of a bad guy and also mutes the demand for different government energy policy. I'm still passing on that hummer purchase though!

[BigJon]

What we have to remember is that the Republicans aren't manipulating gas prices - they can't. IOC's and OPEC are doing the manipulating,

They are? Can you show examples?

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Oh, for the sake of little green apples. I offer anecdotal evidence, based on nothing more authoritative than my own personal memory. Nyah.

I don't think it's OPEC, the PNAC bunch, Zurichian gnomes, or any particular flavor of politicians. Or even seasonal gas formulae. I think it's either market forces, a usage-related (post vacation pre thanksgiving) reduction in sales volume, or politicians in general.

It is my recollection that after Labor day, but before October 1, of any election year, gas prices will fall. The first time that I noticed this I was delighted, because the gas prices fell from 27.9 cents/gal to 23.9 cents/gal. This was before OPEC, but not before elections. Also, there was only regular and premium gas formulae, and they both contained lead. Unless your car was a VW, it was probably a V-8. (Corvairs had a 6, and a bad reputation.) During that time we've had tricky presidents, slick presidents, conservatives, liberals, and so forth. Both parties have been in the white house, both parties have had control of congress during that time. Gas prices keep falling after labor day and rising again before thanksgiving.

Sheesh. Saying <insert villain's name here> causes the variation in gas prices is a little like blaming the rooster for the sunrise. It's likely to happen again, regular-like, whether the bird does anything or not.

[BigJon]

Speaking of gas prices... A gas station near my home was owned by a father/son team. The son went to high school with my husband so we know them very well. They had to close down the gas station this week. I spoke with the father yesterday (who also owns an antique shop I love and happend to be there when I was shopping) said he could not afford the station anymore. He had to pay $12,000 a month to rent the building and $3,000 a month for the insurance. With the irregular price of gas, he was not making any profit, just cutting even so he closed down the business. At least he has the antique shop which does very well. I also noticed that two other stations along the West Hartford/Hartford line closed too. I wonder how much the price of gas is effecting station owners?

Selling primarily gasoline as an independent retail store is a deadly way of making a living today in the US. The refineries make life so miserable for the retailer and the customer is so fickle that making no profit is virtually assured. This is part of the encumbered market I hinted at earlier.

I still like the idea of micro refineries, close to the pump. But that will never be permitted.

[BigJon]

Sheesh. Saying <insert villain's name here> causes the variation in gas prices is a little like blaming the rooster for the sunrise. It's likely to happen again, regular-like, whether the bird does anything or not.

No need to blame villains, spooks, cabals or anything occult for our price of gasoline. There are two very important groups who hold the majority of the power over the price we pay. They are not, specifically, the two named by OT although they could easily intersect. That's why I asked for examples.

[BigJon]

What I find offensive about gas prices hikes, and keeping prices high is not the profits of the gas companies per se. Its the way its done:

Company whines oh woe is me, oil prices are going up next month ouch ouch ouch we must pass on this cost to the consumer right this minute before we incurr it, more public whinging about the pinch. Oil prices drop, gas prices trickle down slowly, when the expensive oil in inventory is used up....
followed by announcements of record profits.

Its the public whimpering and whining by the record-profit-making oil companies that is so offensive. If they shut their traps, we'd not know we were being worked.

Can you provide examples? I've found the big oil companies to just bump up the prices without so much as a comment. The whimpering and whinging I've heard is on a local level. BTW, we had a long discussion in the Katrina thread about why prices need to be bumped as soon as the price increase is known. It's so the retailer can stay in business. Do you recall it? You contributed.

[Haggis@wk]

OT,

” Why is it so fantastical to believe our politics are tied directly to the biggest industry in the world?.”

The world’s largest industry is tourism followed by construction I think oil is fourth or fifth

Who was the single biggest corporate contributor group to GWB?

The largest corporate contributor group to GWB was banking and investment companies; they wanted a new bankruptcy law and got it. The info is available online at the Federal Election Commission’s website.

"Haggis@wk wrote:
Quote:
"1) Get off our dependence on Middle East oil"


I can't see how 15% make us dependent


Then why have we been entangling ourselves there in such a half-assed manner for lo these many years, if it ain't for the oil, or to appease oil interests?

You know darn good and well that's exactly why we're not in Africa."

We get as much and usually more oil from Nigeria, Angola and Algeria as we do from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. So by your reckoning we should have a large military presence in Africa??


Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries



You didn’t use to be so sloppy with the facts

[piqaboo]

What I find offensive about gas prices hikes, and keeping prices high is not the profits of the gas companies per se. Its the way its done:

Company whines oh woe is me, oil prices are going up next month ouch ouch ouch we must pass on this cost to the consumer right this minute before we incurr it, more public whinging about the pinch. Oil prices drop, gas prices trickle down slowly, when the expensive oil in inventory is used up....
followed by announcements of record profits.

Its the public whimpering and whining by the record-profit-making oil companies that is so offensive. If they shut their traps, we'd not know we were being worked.

Can you provide examples? I've found the big oil companies to just bump up the prices without so much as a comment. The whimpering and whinging I've heard is on a local level. BTW, we had a long discussion in the Katrina thread about why prices need to be bumped as soon as the price increase is known. It's so the retailer can stay in business. Do you recall it? You contributed.

Yup I remember and I found the logic faulty there too.

Not the $-making logic. Clearly, selling cheap inventory at a high price because the cost of inventory will rise, makes money. And buying cheap inventory but selling at the old high price because what is in inventory cost more is also a way to make $.
Fine. They should just stop trying to expiate their price increases.
IF I have 20$ oil in inventory but next month its giong to 50,
I can a) continue to sell my cheap inventory at current prices which were certainly enough to make a profit, or b) I can bump prices now, to build a cushion to pay for that higher priced oil next month.
Then when it drops back down to $20 I can a) keep selling my $50 oil at a high rate or b) drop the price down a bit in anticipation of that cheaper oil I will be buying next month.
If Im making money, I choose b & a in that order.
And I dont whine to the public that Im "forced" to raise rates due to rising oil costs. Because equally, lowered oil costs would "let" me lower rates.

Let them just shut up and post their profits.

You may not hear the whining on your radio stations. I do.

[BigJon]

Yup I remember and I found the logic faulty there too.

So you completely refuted the studies that showed that this behavior was the best way for sellers of commodities to stay in business? Wow!

Not the $-making logic. Clearly, selling cheap inventory at a high price because the cost of inventory will rise, makes money. And buying cheap inventory but selling at the old high price because what is in inventory cost more is also a way to make $.

Fine. They should just stop trying to expiate their price increases.

IF I have 20$ oil in inventory but next month its going to 50, I can a) continue to sell my cheap inventory at current prices which were certainly enough to make a profit, or b) I can bump prices now, to build a cushion to pay for that higher priced oil next month. Then when it drops back down to $20 I can a) keep selling my $50 oil at a high rate or b) drop the price down a bit in anticipation of that cheaper oil I will be buying next month. If I'm making money, I choose b & a in that order. And I don't whine to the public that I'm "forced" to raise rates due to rising oil costs. Because equally, lowered oil costs would "let" me lower rates.

BTW, your scenario ignores the fact that there is a competitor on every corner who will undercut you ruthlessly should your prices linger too high for too long, along with the fickle majority of customers who intuitively recognize that they are buying a commodity and will drive out of their way to save a few pennies per gallon. There's that darn free market in action again, keeping a check on those rapacious station owners.

Let them just shut up and post their profits.

Why should they if they are a private enterprise? We don't demand that of any other business we do business with, do we?

You may not hear the whining on your radio stations. I do.

So it is a local issue.

To sum it up, it ain't about what you buy it for, it's about making enough to stay in business to sell more tomorrow. Smart business people do it. Dumb ones go under.

[piqaboo]

Yup I remember and I found the logic faulty there too.

So you completely refuted the studies that showed that this behavior was the best way for sellers of commodities to stay in business? Wow!

You've made an inaccurate and sweeping generalization while referencing only a portion of my comments and therefore changing their meaning.

BTW, your scenario ignores the fact that there is a competitor on every corner who will undercut you ruthlessly should your prices linger too high for too long, along with the fickle majority of customers who intuitively recognize that they are buying a commodity and will drive out of their way to save a few pennies per gallon. There's that darn free market in action again, keeping a check on those rapacious station owners.

Free market my antfanny. As you yourself pointed out, theres a lot of control being done by the big oil refiners, and they've got no need to worry about the guy next door. If I cared to educate you, I;d post a photo series of the gas prices of neighboring stations, but I dont care to. Ive expressed an opinion. You are free to disagree with my opinion (that the whining and 'poor poor pitiful me' of the oil businesses bugs me) but its stupid if you do. Because no matter your opinion, their whining is still going to bug me.

Let them just shut up and post their profits.

Why should they if they are a private enterprise? We don't demand that of any other business we do business with, do we?

I've not encountered another so consistent with it nor so tacky, actually.
And I can have any preference I choose. I hae not asked that 'no whining' be made law.

You may not hear the whining on your radio stations. I do.

So it is a local issue.

Nope. Our stations carry stories from all across this fine piece of realestate we call a nation, as well as the BBC world news. Dunno what kind of radio coverage you are used to.


Bigjon.
You dont like organic. You cite "logical scientific" reasons. Your cited facts are wrong. Those I'll work to refute. Your preference for apples over greens - thats your taste and your welcome to it, I'll not try to tell you you are wrong.

I dont like the way the oil companies play the public game. As I have said, more than once, and as you prefer not to read apparently, they are welcome to make profits but it is my preference that they shut the hell up about how hard they have things, and just make the money.
Because they look like complete idiots saying how hard life is a mere 3 months before posting record profits yet again.
This is my preference. Consider it like apples and spinach.
Im done with this.


Now in terms of facts, we can argue.
You can say gas prices are
"down" at $2/gal in podunk nowhere. We can argue about that.

[Shapley]

Unleaded gasoline prices here in Podunk are up to $2.09/gal. as of this weekend. That seem to have leveled off at about $2.00 - $2.20/gal.

Unleaded gasoline during the rough and tumble days of the Oil Embargo of about 30 years ago were about $1.50/gal. That figures to a price increase of about $.60/gal. over 30 years, or an average rate of increase of about 1.3%.

According to this site, the price of electricity in Washington State has risen at a slightly higher average rate during the same period. It seems that energy from oil still remains a bargain. As I've pointed out before, once that changes, alternatives will begin to find their place in the market. Meanwhile, oil remains the hot energy commodity for the near-term.

V/R
Shapley

[Haggis@wk]

$2.05 in Plano this morning

[piqaboo]

Yer crackin' me up.

If the gas price had gone up slowly over that 30 years, so that it had now achieved $2.09, that would be one thing. But it didnt.
It rose to ~ $1.80-$1.90 around here and then spiked in the last couple years ("down" to $2.49 in our citified version of Podunk, last night).

When my mom was pregnant with my sister, she didnt gain any weight for 5 months. Then she gained 12 lb in a month. A nice average for a pregnancy but it still got her scolded by the ob, because
..this is important, pay attention now... she didnt gain 2.4 lb/month. She gained 12 lb in one month. D'ya get the difference here?

Same thing with gas prices.

[Shapley]

My point was that gasoline prices, even after the drastic price increases, have not risen to a level out-of-proportion to other sources of energy. While the impact of paying $50-per-tank may be a burden to those who were used to paying $20, oil and oil-based fuel remain a bargain to those who decide what forms of energy production technology to invest their dollars in.

Ethanol plants seem to be cropping up all over the Midwest, so the price has been significant enough to influence investment in that regard. Currenlty, most ethanol-enhanced fuel available in this area is about 10% ethanol. Apparently the goal is to boast ethanol-enhancement to about 30% in many markets.

V/R
Shapley

[BigJon]

If the gas price had gone up slowly over that 30 years, so that it had now achieved $2.09, that would be one thing. But it didnt.
It rose to ~ $1.80-$1.90 around here and then spiked in the last couple years ("down" to $2.49 in our citified version of Podunk, last night).

So, are you willing to give back the years and years of gasoline price savings you pocketed when the prices were kept below inflation by commodity pricing behavior? I doubt that you are. So therefore it is hypocritical to expect gasoline to not behave like a commodity on the upside when conditions dictate it. This is the entire point of this thread. The hypocrisy of the beliefs.

[BigJon]

Yup I remember and I found the logic faulty there too.

So you completely refuted the studies that showed that this behavior was the best way for sellers of commodities to stay in business? Wow!

You've made an inaccurate and sweeping generalization while referencing only a portion of my comments and therefore changing their meaning.

Hmmm, that was the "for" logic offered in the prior threads. What other reasoning where you refuting?

Free market my antfanny. As you yourself pointed out, theres a lot of control being done by the big oil refiners, and they've got no need to worry about the guy next door. If I cared to educate you, I;d post a photo series of the gas prices of neighboring stations, but I dont care to. Ive expressed an opinion. You are free to disagree with my opinion (that the whining and 'poor poor pitiful me' of the oil businesses bugs me) but its stupid if you do. Because no matter your opinion, their whining is still going to bug me.

Post what you want. Do you hold the opinion that the gasoline consumers behave in other ways?

Nope. Our stations carry stories from all across this fine piece of realestate we call a nation, as well as the BBC world news. Dunno what kind of radio coverage you are used to.

I get my news mostly from newspapers and the internet. I watch BBC worldwide news some nights. Still scratching my head over the whining comments. Could you link something up that I could read?

Bigjon.
You dont like organic. You cite "logical scientific" reasons.

Nah, just a logical preference based on observation of contamination of ground-grown vegetables entering my kitchen. Nothing scientific.

Your cited facts are wrong. Those I'll work to refute.

I await.

Now in terms of facts, we can argue.
You can say gas prices are
"down" at $2/gal in podunk nowhere. We can argue about that.

I can argue that gas prices are below their projected inflationary price. And that CA has structural barriers to low gas prices.

BTW, $2.07 in the podunk greater Philly area, some stations in NJ dipping below $1.99